A narc would never consider himself a loser or inferior to anyone. You don't really feel anything yet you're sad, angry and cry alot. You are "highly intelligent" yet you're ignorant and naive. You can't read social ques yet can read people. You're highly logical yet hate logical subjects. Your reply to my prodding also showed a lack of intelligence and consideration, just like now when you've read this reply.
I don't know if you've considered this but you sound bipolar more than anything and i DO NOT mean that in a negative manner. People with mental/personality/behavioral disorders are fascinating to me.
Ok, now let me explain those contradictions to make myself better understood. Now when you pointed them out to me, I can see what you mean.
As for my perceiving myself as someone worse than others, it depends from which direction one looks at it - I mean, on the one hand I perceive myself better than an ordinary person, someone destined for fame, greatness, on the other one, I would have to be blind to not see I am inferior to others in terms of my abilities to take care of myself, generally self-dependence as such, having some normal life experiences - generally in being normal. If I can't be someone great which would make a very good excuse for myself as for being different than others (famous and rich people are "forgiven" their weirdness), then I am an ordinary guy living ordinary life and ordinary people share some sort of experiences, beliefs, convinctions, ambitions etc. and here I differ from them. I discovered the term "compensatory narcissism" (known also as "shy narcissism") and it fits me. Anyway it is said that narcissism has its source in the feeling of inferiority one feels.
The second thing is that I don't feel almost anything when it comes to others, like when they suffer, it doesn't mean almost anything for me. I'm sensitive only about myself and those are the situations when I can feel anger or sadness (as for my crying a lot, I don't do it, it happened maybe 2-3 times last year, I didn't specify it. As a child or adolescent I did use to cry quite a lot - it was when parents refused me something I wanted or when they punished me).
I am smart when it comes to my theoretical knowledge. I am naive and ignorant of many things when it comes to my interacting with people (though in theory I know how the brains of those mechanisms named people work). I just lack experience and am afraid I could do something wrong and others would criticize me which prevents me from doing some things, behaving in some manner.
I can read people because I know how they think, what they should feel in some particular situations but I can't apply this knowledge in practice.
I hate maths and similar things because I'm much more into art, I have no talent for pure sciences. The other thing is that I have lacks in concentration and I can't focus for a long time on something more serious because of this short attention span.
Why did my reply show you a lack of intelligence and consideration as well? I would like to know because I really can't think of any reason you thought it.
Bipolar doesn't fit me. As much as I could sound to you as someone with bipolar disorder, you can believe me on this that it doesn't fit me at all :)
Ok... where to begin. Theoretical knowledge is a "smarter" word for "i assume". You assume to know how people work, what makes them tick but you don't KNOW. A prime example of being naive, like a child reading a book about unicorns and thinking that they KNOW they exist. You base far too much on assumtions if, as you said, you don't have experience with people. Why do you consider yourself above others when you have no experience with others? Because someone says something you don't agree with, they must be stupid? Maybe you are stupid for not understanding something as you have no practical experience with pretty much anything, according to you. How can you be into art if the world around you doesn't resonate in you? Also, what does it matter how you treat others? Go out and experiment with people, toy with them, use them and utterly destroy them as a person. There is a certain rush seeing someone break to their basics and go hysterical when the world they thought they knew shatters infront of them, making them doubt reality and their own sanity. You said yourself you don't care so why do you?
Your responses show great emotion and lack of intelligence because you understand the words but not the connections between meanings. It's like you see the trees but not the forest.
The reason i still think you atleast exaggerated in your posts is that even here, you need to be "superior" in some way. You are not.
This feeling of my superiority above others has its roots in the fact that as a kid I had no one to compare myself to. Being always on my own, I acquired knowledge from various fields and developed the ability of logical thinking. I knew more than my peers so I started to think I was somehow better than those peers of mine. I didn't know the world of their thought, had no idea as for what they thought about and their behaviors as on the outside seemed very childish to me. I started to think I was someone better, that I could use the knowledge of mine later on to become someone powerful and famous. I developed my ability to paint and write at the time other kids were just playing and I thought I could do it in the future to become famous. I just thought about myself I had the potential to do it unlike my peers and it was which was making me better than others. All my relatives were telling my parents I was so unlike my peers - that I was so mature, intelligent and getting along with adults much better than with peers. This is how it started. I do hope I'll manage to write a novel in the future which will make me famous, because I stop writing after some time and all my stories are unfinished.
When someone says things I don't agree with, it doesn't necessarily mean I think he or she is dumb - it depends on what this is about. If someone says something I don't agree with because this is an issue of one's taste, then obviously I don't think this person is stupid, I only think this person is one having a different taste than myself. For example when someone says they like guinea pigs, I don't think they are dumb but that they prefer those pets to hamsters, the animals I like and keep. Though I do have a hard time imagining how it is that someone can like something I don't like. I could think one is dumb when they would for example say that, I don't know, that X and Y should date because they make a nice couple and they would fit each other so much while I would know both X and Y as having completely different personalities, having different opinions, levels of intelligence, religions, ambitions or whatever. I mean, it would be illogical to assume such different people would really fit each other because it's similar people who fit each other, while the issue of liking something is something else because this it isn't based on anything more than just this internal positive feeling towards something.
What I meant by art is my interest in things like sculpturing, writing and painting, not as the art of manipulation as you may probably mean (if I understand you well). The art of manipulation is something I happen to try indeed though. I am not into destroying others' lives (I am malicious and manipulative but not to this extent), however I do like to play with someone else's feelings from time to time. Like for example I spread gossip once about one girl I knew that she was a lesbian or I told my cousin who didn't have father that he was a child of rape which I overheard his mother talking about this with our other cousin (I didn't and he wasn't a child of rape but I told him so). I did it just out of spite and because it seemed funny to me to observe their reactions.
I didn't intend to express any emotions in my responses unlike what you say. I just wanted to explain better what I meant. I really domn't get the connection between the meanings of my words I wrote about which you said. I realize someone reading my words doesn't live in my head so he or she could misunderstand some of my words and it was what I was going to express in my responses - my attempts to logically explain the contradictions I wasn't aware of. I also would like to add that everybody has different ways of experiencing the world and can understand another person's post in a different way, seeing subtexts some other person maybe wouldn't have seen.I didn't understand the connection between meanings thing, this "seeing the trees but not the whole forrest". Maybe I do have AS indeed?
I'm not sure how I should understand your last words - the reason for what? For my being here, you mean? No, I don't agree that I went to here to show off as someone superior but I wanted to ask others about what disorder they thought I have, thisis the sole reason and I wrote about my narcissitic traits only to show them the full image of my personality.
I was being slightly offensive and annoying on purpose. See, the whole reason for my posts was to get you to examine what you yourself wrote and be introspective about the traits your listed. Anyone can chart their personality but it takes more to examine the traits objectively. Whatever it's worth (me being a decadent psychopath an all), my conclusion is that you need to express yourself more to others, not in writing or painting but personally to others in whatever form you feel most comfortable in. You come across as a smart, shy and very introverted. Most of the things you explain about yourself are more common that you may think but i think there is a certain confusion inherent in having a more curious and aware mind because you constantly try to understand instead of accept. Go out and meet people through a common interest and enjoy life instead of being afraid to jump. The summer here in Finland (yeah, i'm Finnish too :P) is awesome but short, go out and meet new people, it will do you good.
EDIT: Even if you DO have mental problems, or a personality disorcer, don't try to medicate the symptoms, go out and be yourself.
He is inconsistent in what he's talking about because he jumps from one topic to another, in kind of an extended thought. It is a common autistic trait. I still think he is very much an Aspie. The neurotic traits he sees as narcissism, but as you said, he isn't understanding the core of what a narcissist is. I do not think bipolar disorder is likely, but I could be wrong.
Yeah, he sounds aspie to me. I can see how he could think he has compensatory narcissism, given his family; here he's got his parents blaming him for not being good with people, and over here are his other relatives, saying he's mature and intelligent. Yeah, that's not confusing at all. :P I bet he's always trying to prove to his parents (and himself) that he's a wonderful person, but always ends up getting squashed by the negative things said about him.
Dragontongue – I would like to explain that it isn’t exactly like that. My parents don’t blame me that much, I wrote about their attitude to mental health issues but it isn’t like they are telling me I should be better with people all the time. They do criticize me a lot (and I am not surprised at all, I realize I’m really annoying for them with those quirks of mine and my immaturity) but to be honest, I don’t care. For me it doesn’t matter, it’s just annoying, like flies flying around me would be. I know this is a very strange approach – to not care about what your parents’ opinion on you is, but it is like that. It’s not like I’m sad having heard their negative opinions. Anyway now I even don’t try to pretend normalcy when I’m home, I do it only among people to not make an impression of a real creep. I have some experiences with my seeming creepy to people, even when I in fact wanted to seem a cool, interesting guy to them. For example once, a couple of years ago, as an adolescent I was on a summer camp and thought it would be a chance to seem cool. I tried to talk with people about various interesting things, avoiding run of the mill topics of conversation. And one day at the end of the camp one guy started to talk with me about being a nonconformist and during this conversation he told me he never cared about other people’s opinions on stuff because he always had to develop an opinion on something on his very own, not paying attention to what others could think about this and that he didn’t care for example that… all the other teens thought me to suffer from schizophrenia. Really. He told me that it was only my business if I indeed suffered from this illness because if I took meds for it, then everything was O.K. and no one had a right to reject me because of this illness and that in spite of it I was a cool guy, he thought so, although he didn’t know me too well. I don’t remember exactly what I felt then (though I am very good at remembering such small details of talks, even many years later I can quote the fragments of conversations taking place many years earlier), I only remember that I was angry and upset to hear something like that – everybody would be. Luckily the next day we went home. I must have made a really weird impression on the teens from the camp if they thought me to be mentally ill. But I just can’t guess what other people may think of me and my behaviors, I can’t see them in a wider perspective, I can’t guess much what is a weird behavior and what is a good one, well, yes, I theoretically know it but regardless of it I behave weird and childish when I am among people among whom I feel safe and secure, like my family. My family laughs at mental illnesses – maybe not exactly laughs as such but what I mean is that they don’t treat mentally ill seriously. My stepdad said once that for him mental illness is just as dangerous as a cancer, that the only actual difference for him was that you can die of a cancer which doesn’t happen in the case of a mental illness. My family also mocked my other cousin behind her back because she was in an asylum – but here it was because they didn’t like her because of her negative personality features so were glad that at last they found a pretext to mock her; if she was a nice and friendly person they would like, they would feel bad for her.
Natasha – I didn’t realize that manner of my “jumping from a topic into another one”. I wanted to express all the traits of my personality so they weren’t expressed by me in a coherent way because I wanted to show myself from all the sides, to say so. I didn’t know it could be connected with autistic traits, though – although, maybe this is about what Hexi said (I don’t know if you said it on purpose Hexi, to provoke me to think or if you really saw such a trait in me), that I didn’t see the whole forest from behind trees – concentrating on small details. Though I do admit that although I prefer concentrating on those small details, I don’t have special problems with seeing later the whole picture either. May you say what is the core of narcissism? I found this statement of yours interesting because I always thought it’s about concentrating on oneself and this is what I tend to do but what you said indicates there is a different core of this personality disorder than I thought, what it is according to you?
Hexi – I know I have some personality disorder for sure (a personality disorder is some personality traits which occur very strongly in a person, to such an extent that it is pathological, harmful to this person – even, objectively speaking, to a schizoid who can enjoy solitude but it limits him or her – objectively – and those traits are harmful to me for sure) but no, I’m not going to medicate them on my own. I’m afraid to take any meds on my own, I was always afraid, even as a kid in my late childhood I believed that if one takes meds not prescribed by a doctor, this person can die. I know it sounds funny but well. Thanks for your posts. I know I should go out and be myself but on the other hand, being myself, showing my true self, wouldn’t be what other people would like about me. They would find me a total creep if they talked with me about some things that interest me.
Well, they don't have to say they're blaming you; they just have to criticize you a lot and let you know that they're irritated by you. Just that would definitely make you feel devalued....
Are you saying you don't feel a need to have them approve of you? I mean, I'm sure it would make your home life more pleasant. I, for one, would enjoy living at home a lot more if my dad wasn't always telling me I'm a monster. So he's basically right, yes, but I really could do without it. The more time Dad spends at home, the more weird looks I get from my siblings. :P
Anyway, if you really are narcissistic, you probably think about what other people think of you quite a lot. The opinions of others are very important to narcissists; it's difficult to carry on thinking you're wonderful when everyone around you thinks you're a loser. The opinion of one's parents is pretty important to most people. I suppose it could be that you've rejected your parents' opinions because they're negative, but I seriously doubt that they don't affect you.
So, you were trying to be cool... and ended up looking schizophrenic? That's hysterical! Ahahaha... oh, dear. You know, I tried to be cool at camp once. I told the other girls in my cabin that I had two boyfriends (sort of like a reverse Mormon), acted bored all the time, and told scary stories at bedtime. I ended up getting hit on by a lesbian. *shrug* Life is weird.
But you say you remember bits of conversations you had years ago? Let me guess--you mostly remember the bits you weren't sure about, the ones you didn't think went over well, the parts that were maybe kind of stupid.... You probably went over and over them after the conversation, analyzing everything you said, right? I used to do that. Then I realized that most people are more interested in what they said than in what you said... so what's the point in obsessing over it? Unless you say something really, really dumb, they're probably not even going to remember it.
...Of course, that is sort of your problem.... Theory is very different from practice, especially when you've got some sort of social phobia. Oh, never mind. Maybe some people just exist to make other people feel better about themselves: "Well, I might have accidentally insulted the girl I liked, but at least I didn't make as big a fool of myself as that guy!" sort of thing.
My family believes that mental illness is all in your head! ;)
Although I indeed would like them to accept my behaviors, if they don't do it, it really doesn't matter to me - it would be nice to be less criticized but if they don't accept me, it really doesn't matter to me. It would matter to me if they criticized me really a lot and very often but it would be only because I would find it annoying and irritating, not for any personal reasons. To be honest, although I know for people it's important to feel loved by parents, for me it wasn't ever a matter of any importance. I, of course, would like to be loved by them than not if I were confronted with a choice of the approach of my family to me, but that's only because then I would feel safer because in the case of any problems, my parents would want to help me and not loving you, your family in such a situation could tell you: "deal with it on your own". I do very like it when my family is glad because of something I did for them, though, and I feel happiness when I can do something for them which would be pleasant to them. It is not about my home life being unpleasant now because it's not like my parents disapprove of me a lot, it happens only when I say or do something out of the norm. Anyway when they criticize me for something, I forget about this very soon.
I don't reject my parents' opinions because they are negative but because they aren't real - I mean, they can think this or that behavior or conviction is dumb/wrong/inappropriate but because I don't perceive this in such a way as they do, I don't agree with them. For example if they kept telling me that for example my blue T-shirt should be replaced by me with a green one because it's prettier, I would reject this opinion because of the fact that I would like the blue one's looks more.
As for the conversations, I do remember those which concerned me not anyone else, indeed. I wrote about them in my first post in this fragment of it, which concerned my OCD/PTSD thoughts. I did say really very dumb things and made dumb goofs (I know that some of them aren't remembered by some people and even those who remember them, don't think about them all the time, they may elicit them from their memories when they start to think about me; they don't obsess over them as I do but this awareness doesn't help me not to worry and obsess about it. I know obsessing about it is silly but I can't rationally stop thinking about it. But it's not only about those, I remember also the bits of pretty ordinary conversations, I have very good memory for details, I always did. I even remember some of the things from the time I was a baby - like when my dad took me to his best friend living in neighborhood whose wife just came back from the hospital where she gave birth to their new babies and I remember looking myself at those baby twins and given the age difference between myself and them, I was 10 months at that time (it's my earliest memory).
You misunderstood me completely. My tone was such that would make you examine yourself, i didn't "troll" you or make stuff up. Also, there is nothing in your posts that would directly suggest a PD, why do you want to convince yourself you have one? To find a reason for being a coward? To explain why people find you odd? You really, really need to stop thinking about socializing and go frikking do it and stop thinking yourself as a creep, it makes you prject as such to others.
What do you think others would think if i went to a total stranger and started to talk about stuff like "yeah, gutting an animal is so cool. It's such a rush to look into it's eyes while you hold it down and slit his throat open, to take a life from a sentient being"? People are uncomfortable talking about anything that would make them look "odd" to others because everyone is so judgemental and need to look down on others. By that logic, everyone is a narcissist! Oh please... when the turd and fan connects and you get down to it, almost everyone will only think about themselves and that behaviour is the trutha bout humans. We pretend to give a **** and some even might, right up untill THEY have to make an effort or are in the line of fire. Most are sad, miserable creatures, bound by their inhibitions and shame, being too afraid to be themselves and our modern society is too hectic for most to look into themselves, just get some pills when you feel like shoving your kind into a freezer, that will solve it all.
I felt like ranting, so there.
EDIT: Dragontongue, you are awesome and mental illness is indeed all in your head. /nod <3
I know that you were initially insulting and malicious on purpose but I only didn't know if you told me about my not seeing the whole picture from behind on purpose as well or if it was what you really saw in me. I'm anyway really grateful to you for your making me examine myself. I don't want to convince myself about anything (I do exhibit the traits of avoidant PD), I only see there is something about me which doesn't make me like everyone else. I do think I have something inborn and it can be an ASD.
And this is which makes me think so, my traits: I learnt reading at a very young age and I have an obsession with reading, I acquire knowledge really fast (I especially like learning languages on my own, I can speak better or worse: English, German, Swedish, Czech and a bit Spanish which I started to learn recently), monotonous voice, lack of social and emotional reciprocity, attachment to items, I have auditory processing disorder and OCD tendencies, dyspraxia, something like eating disorder (it isn't anorexia but I do hate eating and I feel like vomiting when I have eaten too much), attachment to rules created by myself, living in my own imagination (the characteristic trait of it is that all my imaginary worlds come from books and movies, aren't really original, made up by myself), synaesthesia (it's really strong), some minor sensory issues (I don't think they are strong enough to be names real issues but I do have issues with touching me by someone else, feeling temperature and smells - I think I feel smells much weaker than any other person I know), attachment to deatails, logical thinking, obsessions (not as strong as in aspies from descriptions I read but when I obsess with something I can read about it many, many, many times and I am thinking constantly about the object of my interests), severe problems with planning and judging how much time something can take me, problems with reading body language, my being authoritative and a perfectionist, thinking in pictures, tics, passivity and never initiating things on my own, liking to do things in the same way and gathering big collections of things.
I know I think about myself in a negative manner and that I should open up to people more but it's as I said in the previous post - when I do it, people find me funny and strange. I don't experience the world in the way they do, things they get emotional over don't affect me. The things they find interesting aren't interesting for me. It's not an attempt of convincing myself that there's something wrong with me which prevents me from getting along with others but the sad truth.
If someone started to talk with me about gutting animals, I wouldn't find this person a weirdo but a person with sadistic inclinations. I could accept being an eccentric person but only if it was accompanied by good social skills of mine. I was always fascinated with people being different than others but only when they were good with people, charizmatic at the same time.
Narcissism is an inflated sense of self importance. You are better than everybody else, without rational cause.
In your case, this is very obviously untrue. Similarly to what I said before, you have inverted inwards to yourself as a type of coping mechanism to deal with the feeling of being alienated from the outside world. Narcissism would almost be the opposite of this; a narcissist would inappropriately brag and project himself to the outside world, as he sees himself as superior and deserving of many praise and recognition.
Agreed, Natasha. Also, i believe you obsess over your quirks and amplify them in your head. You are so afraid to be defined by your personality that it defines you, if that makes any sense to you. None of the traits you mentioned would mean anything to me, i wouldn't judge you based on such things at all. There isn't a single person without "demons" of their own, you just need to understand them, adapt and not let them be what you are.
Natasha - on the other hand, though, the tendency for narcisstic behaviors must be inborn, must be in one's disposition from the very beginning, otherwise narcissm wouldn't develop. Everybody has a different personality and would develop differently when faced with the same conditions of life - for example out of 3 siblings from a pathological family one of them in whose personality there are antisocial tendencies inborn, will develop antisocial personality disorder as a result, the other one in whose disposition there are avoidant tendencies will turn out avoidant and the third sibling will be normal; with bad memories and stuff but normal, unaffected. I had this tendency since I was little so it isn't like it's totally caused by my shyness because when I was really little I didn't have opportunities to play with peers so I didn't experience any rejection, I didn't compare myself with anyone for the lack of anyone to compare myself with. The primary source for my narcissism was my being praised constantly by adults. And later it was only fomented by my being more mature and having more knowledge than my peers when I was an older child. You wrote a narcissitic person believes themselves to be better with no rational reasons but I don't think such an ordinary person who would be just like everybody would be narcissitic; in my opinion there is always some base for narcissism on which it is based for a person to develop this feeling that he or she is more important than others. It may be something external like money or family's social position or internal, like someone's skills, intellect, abilities, possessed knowledge but it's still in there. I like to show others I can do something better than the whole rest, that I do have an advantage over ordinary folks etc., I always liked to do it but mostly in childhood; later I felt such bragging to be recognized and praised sounded too silly for me and I felt embarassed with it.
Hexi - I know I obsess over myself and that I am thinking too much about myself which is caused by the fact that I have no idea what exactly other people think about themselves and about me and I am afraid I can be really weird in their opinion. I know other people also have their problems but not many of them have so many of them as me.
Dr Robert, may you express your thoughts on the topic raised by me as well?
I have a question about one thing more - does anyone here know any ways of getting rid of procrastination, of effective fighting executive disfunction? Are there any ways to do it? Because those are literally ruining my life. I have severe problems with managing my time. I can promise myself that from this day I will do all those things I want to start doing, like acquiring new knowledge, learning somehing new, that I will do the things I should do, like cleaning my room and stuff, but finally at the end of the day I realize that I spent my whole day online reading about the same things about which I already read million times before, not having done anything useful. I am always delaying doing things I know I should do, waiting with those until the very last minutes when I have to do it in a hurry. I have no idea how much time doing things is going to take me.
Dr Robert, I saw you gave advice to other people, may you express your opinion on my problem? You are a specialist so maybe you have any opinion on my problems.