Right. I do get what you and I Unknown (I think) are saying. If I limit my imagination enough I can see how ignorance can be bliss. But as soon as I stop the limiting thing I can see how it doesn’t work, or rather, how it commonly works. Bliss never lasts long. As you said yourself Hexi, as soon as the happy but perhaps caring shoe buyer discovers that her purchase was made possible by the suffering of others, her good feelings may be easily snuffed out. And even if she doesn’t discover how her shoes got to the store, she goes out and runs with them the next morning feeling great… until she notices that it is too hot. Or too cold. Or she starts thinking about the argument she had last night with Richard, her on again/off again boyfriend. Or how she wishes her mother would just get off her back. I can’t help but see the happiness that accompanies ignorance as usually very short lived and not worth the effort. To me anyway.

But to reiterate, I see and concede the point. For a moment at least, ignorance can seem to induce happy-like feelings in others.

Right. I do get what you and I Unknown (I think) are saying. If I limit my imagination enough I can see how ignorance can be bliss. [/quote]

Yes. Busted. I limited my lense.

I really need to learn to explain my meaning better, i apologize.[/quote]

You need not apologize, you explained what you meant just fine. :)

Everything in life is transitory and life itself is VERY fragile, should we not bother with it? Or should we try to get the most out of every experince, objectively, positive and negative?[/quote]

We should indeed, that's a great way of thinking.

Ecco, everything in life is transitory and life itself is VERY fragile, should we not bother with it? Or should we try to get the most out of every experince, objectively, positive and negative? That is how i do things, atleast.[/quote]

True. Buddha said this himself ages ago. Everything does change. But I don’t believe that we shouldn’t bother with it. On the contrary. Love it, is my opinion! Every last bit of it! Why not? If life is a dream, I say have a happy one. Have fun. Create. Laugh lots with family and friends and yourself. Eat your favorite foods. Make love. Seriously, enjoy it as best we can.

For me, I desired to see what is. I wanted to find out, if, as the Buddha intimated, there is a place that is beyond both happiness and sadness, a space large enough to encompass them both. I wanted to see if peace and equanimity were possible, regardless of the “outer” circumstances, as the deepest traditions in all of the world religions intimate. And I verified for myself that this place is real, here and now.

But that’s just me though. For most people, I would recommend sane and joyful living, where possible.

Nice defense mechanism there, Ecco. You chose apathy because you couldn't handle the inherent confusion of our existence. Dressing it up doesn't change it.

Nice defense mechanism there, Ecco. You chose apathy because you couldn't handle the inherent confusion of our existence. Dressing it up doesn't change it.[/quote]

Interesting. Our existence is confusing… Is that true? How would you know for certain? You say our. Are you referring to just you and me or are you referring to everyone who has ever lived? Either way, how do you know this is accurate? How do you know what I could and could not handle? Do you really think a relative handful of posts on an internet forum gives you that much clarity into my internal state? What makes this supposed existential confusion unchangeable?

This is a series of unquestioned assumptions (i.e. beliefs) on your part Hexi. Conflict often breeds within the soil of unquestioned assumptions. I’m just sayin.

For me, I desired to see what is. I wanted to find out, if, as the Buddha intimated, there is a place that is beyond both happiness and sadness, a space large enough to encompass them both. I wanted to see if peace and equanimity were possible, regardless of the “outer” circumstances, as the deepest traditions in all of the world religions intimate. And I verified for myself that this place is real, here and now.[/quote]

My favorite Buddhist advice is, "Don't believe everything you think." I try to remember that each day.

I have no trouble finding a place of contentment, where the mundane and divine mirror each other harmoniously, where the joy of life and pain of experience meet in the beauty of the universe, at once timelessly the same and ever evolving.

I've been to nirvana, for lack of a better word. I just need a ride back home - hehe.

I've been to nirvana, for lack of a better word. I just need a ride back home - hehe.[/quote]

LMAO! Boy do I understand this!!!

My favorite Buddhist advice is, "Don't believe everything you think." I try to remember that each day.[/quote]

Yuppers. Gotta love Buddha. He knew what he was talking about! That is why I sometimes say to myself whenever a wisdom-ous thought appears within "even that isn't true". :-)

I saw a thread like this coming sooner or later.[/quote]

I knew you were a psychic! :-)

True happiness, to me, is being able to look at your life and being proud of were you are, experiencing new experiences, being with friends and family those kind of things are all those things make me happy. So that's what happiness is for me. :)[/quote]

Excellent. Does this work well for you then? How happy are you, on average?

Does this work well for you then? How happy are you, on average?[/quote]

It does work well for me!
How happy am I? Very.
Sure I've done things I am not proud of, things I wouldn't like to admit to, but as I said before If I could go back and not do those things, I wouldn't. Because all the things I've done, both good and bad have bought me to were I am today, somewhere I am proud to be. :)

Edit: I know it sounds boastful, but it's the truth.

Does this work well for you then? How happy are you, on average?[/quote]



It does work well for me!

How happy am I? Very.

Sure I've done things I am not proud of, things I wouldn't like to admit to, but as I said before If I could go back and not do those things, I wouldn't. Because all the things I've done, both good and bad have bought me to were I am today, somewhere I am proud to be. :)



Edit: I know it sounds boastful, but it's the truth.[/quote]

I'm not following. You are proud of where you are today. The sum total of all your experiences add up to a good you. But you didn't answer the question. How happy are you? (not picking on you!)

Of course it doesn't sound boastful Toby! If that is your experience than good on you!

Here is an example. Let's say one buys a new pair of shoes, he/she is happy that he/she can run with good shoes now. Would the person still be happy about his new shoes if they knew that in order for them to get those shoes cheaply, someone, somewhere has to work 12h/day 7d/week, getting paid less than a dollar/day? No, they would feel ashamed or justify it with nonsense but since they don't know, it doesn't weigh in their mind.[/quote]

I do not know that I can define happiness by what it is, but I do know I can say what it is not. This feeling you describe is not happiness. It may be pride in a cool thing. It may be satisfaction in a well made thing. It may be vanity in a fashionable thing. Happiness does not come from things.

Happiness is clarity.

Happiness is clarity.[/quote]
Do you mean that having clarity makes you happy? Or that clarity and happiness are the same thing? Or what? I would like clarification, please! ;)

Happiness is clarity.[/quote]
Do you mean that having clarity makes you happy? Or that clarity and happiness are the same thing? Or what? I would like clarification, please! ;)[/quote]

Nothing, no thing under the sun whether physical or ideological, can make one happy. Happiness is a conscious choice.

I mean that I find it most effortless to choose happiness in the presence of clarity than under any other circumstance.

Nothing, no thing under the sun whether physical or ideological, can make one happy. Happiness is a conscious choice.

I mean that I find it most effortless to choose happiness in the presence of clarity than under any other circumstance.[/quote]

Ahhh... sweet music to my ears. Dang you're good!

Nothing, no thing under the sun whether physical or ideological, can make one happy. Happiness is a conscious choice.

I mean that I find it most effortless to choose happiness in the presence of clarity than under any other circumstance.[/quote]
Oh, okay. I see what you mean now. Thank you!

I do not know that I can define happiness by what it is, but I do know I can say what it is not. This feeling you describe is not happiness. It may be pride in a cool thing. It may be satisfaction in a well made thing. It may be vanity in a fashionable thing. Happiness does not come from things.

Happiness is clarity.[/quote]

I elaborated on my meaning in another post on this thread.

Ecco, your response says alot more than i think even you realise. Instead of considering the idea even for a second you defend your position by questioning mine, a logical fallacy. I didn't mean apathy in a negative sense, purely as a reaction to something but it seems i was more right than you care to admit, interesting and at the same time a tad disappointing.

Ok Hexi. Now we move from honest exchange and even potentially constructive criticism (my long-winded responses, to you) to you assuming you know my ongoing inner state based entirely on your own unquestioned assumptions about me and the world around you. A fact that you do not even realize, ironically enough. How do you know what I have and have not considered, even now? Why were my questions interpreted, by you, as defense? How do you even know what my position really is and more importantly, why would you assume I have one to begin with? If you had bothered to answer my questions above, showing me evidence of why your view of my comments is the most accurate one and that ergo I should adopt it, then we might be on to something. But alas, you find yourself a tad disappointed by your own unquestioned and thoroughly believed thinking. Which is fine.

There is no resonance between what we see on an individual level, as you pointed out in another thread and again that is fine. I will not attempt to change your mind or argue my point of view or try to make you wrong. I will respect your right to say, think, do and believe in whatever ways make you happiest. Variety is the spice of life! And on that note, I am going to ignore the rest of your comments. I simply have no desire to play these types of word games. Whitewolf wore me out on the whole “you must be *fill in the blank mental illness* because you don’t think as I do” vibe. Even my patience has limits. :-(

I wish you well in all you do.

Bye.

Apathy is not a mental illness and indeed it was sought after by christians, jews and buddhists alike as a mental harmony. Your post about you not caring about such things as happiness or unhappness and the questioning of the meaningfulness of it all led me to that assessment. You are not a special little snowflake with special mental powers and understanding, get over yourself. This is meant for others, by the way as i assume you wont be replying.

Beloved Hexi:

I have changed my mind about ignoring your posts. It didn't feel wise to me. Ignoring you is like ignoring a part of myself. That is not self love. I imagine you don't care, and as always, that is fine. And yes, I know I am not doing you any favors. Kindness to you is kindness to me and that's why I am apologizing for the intent of previous comment.

Sincerely,

Special Little Snowflake

My posts came across as hostile, which was not the original intent and out of habit i jumped to tear apart you through your response. Wether or not i was right is irrelevant, and the reasoning meaningless, even to myself. Let's just leave it at that and i'll be more considerate in the future.

The inherent difficulty of discussing happiness: happiness is a word that covers so much:

Happiness is when I'm going out with friends.
Happiness is when I'm devouring my favorite food.
Happiness is when I'm in love.
Happiness is when I just bought a nice car.
Happiness is when I'm playing basketball.

Out of all of these the most important happiness in my life is living with purpose, more specifically my work. I can sacrifice my social life, food, money, car and basketball for it. Love though, is as important as purpose. These two components of happiness are lasting and transcends all.

Happiness is when I'm going out with friends.
Happiness is when I'm devouring my favorite food.
Happiness is when I'm in love.
Happiness is when I just bought a nice car.
Happiness is when I'm playing basketball.
[/quote]

In my opinion all of the above are joyfullness, not happiness. Except maybe "Happiness is when I'm in love." To me, that's true happiness

Out of all of these the most important happiness in my life is living with purpose, more specifically my work. I can sacrifice my social life, food, money, car and basketball for it. Love though, is as important as purpose. These two components of happiness are lasting and transcends all.[/quote]

What happiness will you find when you are retired? I'm not really quibbling with you - I think life has a purpose and in that purpose is happiness.

What happiness will you find when you are retired? I'm not really quibbling with you - I think life has a purpose and in that purpose is happiness.[/quote]

And is the purpose of happiness to have a meaning so you can be happy? :P

What happiness will you find when you are retired? I'm not really quibbling with you - I think life has a purpose and in that purpose is happiness.[/quote]



And is the purpose of happiness to have a meaning so you can be happy? :P[/quote]

LOL am I that transparent? ;) Ah, reason!