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Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ecce Homo
My own spiritual journey started when I had a sudden insight into the emptiness of everything around and within me when I was 20. I had zero exposure to alternative spiritualities or ways of thinking. What I had at hand was my family’s fundamentalist Christian faith, so that is where I turned to fill the void I suddenly became aware of. That was the beginning of what turned into a 15 year journey of exploration and ultimately failure. I failed in finding a way to fill the void. I admitted my failure. And in that admission came surrender, which in turn lead to realization and ultimately peace. Now I am no longer seeking. Or rather, instead of seeking answers for myself I am now seeking fresh ways to embody what was realized. It’s one step at a time, one change at a time.

Has that been your journey as well?


Yes, in a very real sense, this is the story of my journey. I was younger than you when I began questioning my parent's faith (also fundamentalist Christian) and set out to find my own way, and it took me a good deal longer to get to a peaceful place in my mind - goodness nearly 25 years now. Actually, my parents were my grandparents who adopted me, and my biological parents gave me a little bit more exposure to other ways - my mother was involved in her own search for truth after a very tumultuous divorce and tried everything from wiccan to actualism to find her way and my father is a pure hedonist (he's got borderline personality disorder) - but in essence, yes, this is what I experienced.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ecce or Unknown, I know this is completely off topic but when you quote someone, how do you get it to say "Originally posted by Toby"?

Awww Toby. You’re too good to me man!


Shh! You'll make me blush! :D


Ecce, how did you get to be so... I don't know.. your answers are just so... kind of... you know what I mean. Wisdom-ous (?)
You can't of always been like that your entire life, what lead you to where you are now? Did you just suddenly one day become enlightened or was it more of a slow "life experiences" thing...

(I couldn't of worded that worse, but I hope you understand what I mean) :)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby
Ecce or Unknown, I know this is completely off topic but when you quote someone, how do you get it to say "Originally posted by Toby"?


[ quote = Toby ] ... [ / quote ]

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby


(I couldn't of worded that worse, but I hope you understand what I mean) :)


This is actually quite interesting. I find his posts rather boring and longwinded. I don't want to bring this up again in a way that would suggest i dislike him or anything, i'm asking because i want to know WHY i find his posts boring and longwinded. Anyone have any ideas?

For example, i would have said "Love is giving everything, consciously, without expecting or wanting anything in return".

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
Love is giving everything, consciously, without expecting or wanting anything in return


That is a very good answer, technically. Does it actually mean anything to you?

Perhaps you find Ecce Homo's answers boring because they do not resonate with you. For me, they tend to affirm an enlightening I've already experienced, one with which I am now comfortably familiar, and let me think, "Yes, I've got that sorted out. Woo hoo." Maybe, for you, they touch on something which you cannot yet comprehend or have not yet considered or experienced for yourself?

I'm asking, here, not telling, by the way. This response contains no animosity but rather just the ruminations of a curious mind.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
Love is giving everything, consciously, without expecting or wanting anything in return.


I, personally, don't think that is a very good definition of Love, but I can't give a better one so I can't really speak...

To me that's just my daily life, giving without expecting anything in return is a main part of an individuals spiritual growth, but not love.

I think Unknown is right in saying:
"Perhaps you find Ecce Homo's answers boring because they do not resonate with you."

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

A better definition for Toby (in particular):

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

In short, love is self-less. It is, to quote Hexi, "giving everything, consciously, without expecting or wanting anything in return." ;)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

1 Corinthians 13:4

Now you're talking! :)
I tried quoting the good book on here, only to be met by insults and name calling... I think Ecce was the only one who didn't seem to be "angered" by them. Lol

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

hehe I would quote them to you but not likely to anyone else I've met here yet. I prefer to play each game I play by the other party's rules.

For the record, the Bible is a good book (no pun intended). I've read it several times over and I find that once you strip out the history lessons and the culturally significant mores (more-rays), you are left with the same basic principles that make Buddhism, or Islam, or, for that matter, the Celestine Prophecy work. There is a way, in theory at least, for humanity to get along with itself if we all consistently and constantly strive to reach that ideal level of consciousness and awareness.

That's over-simplified, clearly, as no two people ever appear to be on the same rung of spiritual evolution at the same time, much less all of humanity - God's got a rather sick sense of humor, if you ask me ;)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Unknown
hehe I would quote them to you but not likely to anyone else I've met here yet. I prefer to play each game I play by the other party's rules.

For the record, the Bible is a good book (no pun intended). I've read it several times over and I find that once you strip out the history lessons and the culturally significant mores (more-rays), you are left with the same basic principles that make Buddhism, or Islam, or, for that matter, the Celestine Prophecy work. There is a way, in theory at least, for humanity to get along with itself if we all consistently and constantly strive to reach that ideal level of consciousness and awareness.


And I could have written this myself, word for word. :-)

Btw, I Corinthians 13, the famous love chapter is one of my favorite portions of the Bible! If you just want to not bother with the whole truth realization thing and get down to living a sane and happy life, it can’t hurt to start by trying to live up to the ideal of this chapter. What kind of society would we live in if everyone attempted to treat each other this way?

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

I agree Ecce. There are many biblical verses that can be used for people to try and live up to.
If people did, the world would be a much better, happier place to live in.

word for word...


Verbatim sounds better.... ;)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby-
I have no problem with you quoting the Bible as long as you refrain from imagining, as so many seeming-idiots do, that the Bible is a book of facts or was written by "God."

There is a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but it is certainly not a book of rules on how to live a good life. Actually it is filled with violence, bigotry, murder, racism, etc. I will never understand how people can imagine that a "god" would ever "write" such stuff.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

There is not one Christian on the earth that does, or has ever though the Bible was written by God. God doesn't have hands, or a pencil as far as I know... :)
But I understand what you meant.

The Bible was also not written by Jesus, contrary to popular belief. It was writen by John, Matthew, Luke and Mark. In the Gospels, litteraly meaning 'Good News'.

There is a lot of good stuff in the Bible, but it is certainly not a book of rules on how to live a good life. Actually it is filled with violence, bigotry, murder, racism, etc.


I respectfully disagree. It is a great book, and it most certainly does contain wonderful rules on how to live a good, fulfilling life.

Can you please locate the "violence, bigotry, murder and racism" in the New Testament? Good Luck!

In the Old Testament, yes there is violence and war, but that's the Old, not New, testament. The New Testament contains the new set of rules for mankind.
If I choose a religion, much to a random forum-posters disliking, I would like one that touches on all aspects of life, yes, including war.

:)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

What i said is how i see "pure. unconditional love". I understand it, intellectually, but i have never felt it or anything close to it. I see it as an idle fantasy, an ideal.

So ecco's posts reaffirm your own beliefs? I actually agree with him on many occasions, i meant that i find his way of elaborating everything to the max boring. Maybe it's because i've studied journalism, purely on amateur basis, and gotten "used" to keeping it "short and to the point" and thus find it somewhat annoying spending 10 minutes to read what could be a single paragraph. Oh well, i didn't mean it offensively to anyone, i was just curious.

Toby, you forgot to add that the bible was edited by the romans to fit their agenda as the idea of many gods was going out of fashion. ;)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
i meant that i find his way of elaborating everything to the max boring. Maybe it's because i've studied journalism, purely on amateur basis, and gotten "used" to keeping it "short and to the point" and thus find it somewhat annoying spending 10 minutes to read what could be a single paragraph. Oh well, i didn't mean it offensively to anyone, i was just curious.


This is perfect Hexi. I love how life balances itself out. Toby’s comments were complimentary while yours was less so. And it is beautiful. No I don’t think you were insulting me and no offense was taken on my end. You were merely reporting your experience. Thanks for that! Seriously.

For example, i would have said "Love is giving everything, consciously, without expecting or wanting anything in return".


Which is fine. But what I said before I’ll say again. The reason you say things differently than I would is because you might not want to (or may be unable to) provide the nuance that I think is helpful for clarity. For instance, love doesn’t just give. Love is. Love isn’t just an action. Love is Reality. And see, this is where words fail anyway. The reality transcends any words we could ever say about it. But words are also all we have. So I end up saying more words to try explain that which is beyond words…

What i said is how i see "pure. unconditional love". I understand it, intellectually, but i have never felt it or anything close to it. I see it as an idle fantasy, an ideal.


This is what I mean. You thought you understood me, hence your narrowing what you thought I said down to one sentence. But you didn’t. What I was referring to is beyond emotion, although it certainly includes emotion. It is not an ideal to aspire to or a fantasy to deride. It is that which exists prior to thought, encompasses thought and remains when thought ceases. It is you unmasked.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ecce Homo
This is perfect Hexi. I love how life balances itself out. Toby’s comments were complimentary while yours was less so.


For every action, there is a negative or positive reaction. :)

The reality transcends any words we could ever say about it.


We have a very limited vocabulary when it comes to describing life, the universe etc.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby
We have a very limited vocabulary when it comes to describing life, the universe etc.


Don’t we though? Every single word is a limitation. And I do mean every. Yet most people appear to mistake the words for reality itself. It would be like mistaking the word water for actual water. Which one is going to satisfy a thirsty man on a hot summer day, the word or the reality?

And taking this metaphor a bit further, you can see why I don’t argue, especially about stuff like what we’re discussing now. Again, if you have been out in the desert for days and you see someone with a cold glass of water calling your name, how are you going to feel if that person withholds the glass until you tell him which word for water you think is “right”: water, eau (French) or agua (Spanish)? Does it really make a difference? Will any of those words satisfy your actual, very real thirst? That’s what I hear when I see/hear/experience people arguing about this stuff. One person is declaring his word for water is better than the French’s or the Spanish. And nobody’s actually quenching their thirst with the real thing, which is right in front of them! It’s all a little silly.

Ok, metaphor-speak over.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now



There's an image, It portrays more than words ever could, but It's sill not the real thing.
We should all go around carrying thousands of cards, and show them to people when our vocab is limited on that particular subject.... :) It's actually a quite good idea, besides the fact it's impossible...

One person is declaring his word for water is better than the French’s or the Spanish.


Yes, but our word is better. :) I know what you mean, that's were my card idea would come in...

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby
Yes, but our word is better. :)


LOL. Right. But my word is omi, which is Yoruban and therefore better. Sorry man, but you've gotta go. DEATH TO INFIDELS!

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

DEATH TO INFIDELS!


Eeeep! :) I thought you were American, or do you just live in America? Doesn't matter anyway :D

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Actually. i begin to see where we are different. My parents never even tried to taught me anything relating to spiritualism. Infact, my parents didn't really teach me much anything, other than practical things. Perhaps this is why metaphysical philosophies don't touch me, nothing was ever "imprinted" to me in my childhood regarding such matters so i have never felt the need to search answers to such a degree as to get into religion. Maybe it's a cultural thing as religion is meaningless in Finnish society, no one cares what others think about god or other such matters.

Hmm, i'm actually curious now as to where the need to understand the metaphysical comes from, considering how subjective the subject is.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
Actually. i begin to see where we are different. My parents never even tried to taught me anything relating to spiritualism. Infact, my parents didn't really teach me much anything, other than practical things. Perhaps this is why metaphysical philosophies don't touch me, nothing was ever "imprinted" to me in my childhood regarding such matters so i have never felt the need to search answers to such a degree as to get into religion. Maybe it's a cultural thing as religion is meaningless in Finnish society, no one cares what others think about god or other such matters.



Hmm, i'm actually curious now as to where the need to understand the metaphysical comes from, considering how subjective the subject is.


The need to understand the metaphysical is as fundamental to our being as the need to pee. In all of recorded history, we are ever searching to understand this thing. At least, the sentient amoung us, are.

Our parents share their opinions with us, but at some point, the rational being will question those opinions and absorb those which pass the test of reason and reject those which don't.

I am a bit confused how God got into the love thread, but I suppose love is a metaphysical thing. hehe

Hexi, would you say everything has an opposite? If so, what do you say the opposite of love is?

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Perhaps it is because i've never witnessed or felt love that i don't believe in it.

I don't see metaphysical as a nescessesity in our universe. More and more phenomenon that were considered metaphysical in the past, have become quantifiable. I don't see this trend being reversed. I know there are things that science can't explain, not yet atleast, but that does not automatically suggest a metaphysical reason. Likewise, divine entities are not required for us to exist. Also, i know religion is more about the fundamental look on life and our universe but i just don't accept the metaphysical of it.

Opposite of love? I would say ambition.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference"

Hexi
Perhaps it is because i've never witnessed or felt love that i don't believe in it.


But Whitewolf said that Psychopaths can feel love, but only for family etc. Or are we not calling him a psychopath anymore?

The opposite of love? Not hate, But selfishness, in my opinion.
Do you ever think you'll experience anything like love? Or if you could, would you? :)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ambition is not selfish or greedy? I thought about indifference, which is fine too but love is so much more, simple indifference would just be a part of the opposite. Love and hate are closer to eachother than people realize :P

No, i don't feel anything towards my brothers or my mother, my father i don't even know as my mom left him when i was 4. To me they are just people, people that are hard to ignore at times but not much more.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Right, Right.
So by nothing, do you mean completely nothing?
I mean, if someone threatened to kill them, would you care? Would you protect them? :)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby
Right, Right.
So by nothing, do you mean completely nothing?
I mean, if someone threatened to kill them, would you care? Would you protect them? :)


I might pretend to care. Protect? Would i jump infront of a bullet? No.

EDIT: Actually, i've "protected" my half-brother before but that was purely an excuse to sate my violent tendencies so i'm not sure that counts.

EDIT2: Oh.. do i think i'll ever experience love? What kind of a question is that? Do you think you'll get cancer? (without the negative connotations)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

What's wrong with that question?

As a psychopath, do you think you'll ever experience Love?
Do I think i'll get cancer? Probably, I mean, with diabetes I have an increased risk of pancreatic cancer...

If someone had a gun to your brothers head and only you could save the day with your own gun, would you?

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby

If someone had a gun to your brothers head and only you could save the day with your own gun, would you?


Yes, he would, but not for the reason you would. Knowing that most people would expect him to shoot and much more importantly excuse the death of that someone would free him from the constraint of fear of incarceration and allow him the luxury of ridding the world of a nuisance.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ok, that was a poor example i admit. Still, the answer would be "no, i don't know if i'll ever experience love, nor do i care if i do or not".

Yes, i would shoot the person, in the face actually, but like said, not for the reasons you would. Actually, fear of prison has never stopped me before so that's not really in the equation. (i have a... colourful past)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Dr robert is right, why did the discussion go to me and my views again. I'm gonna stop answering your questions Toby. You already know the answers anyway.

Where did the concept of love come from? Is it imprinted within us? Foolish notion, inspired by romance novels? What is the purpose of love? Surely it's not biological, as it goes against survival of the self. (i'm shamelessly trying to get back on topic)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Thanks, Hexi--

Yes, that is the point, and I think Whitewolf intentionally or unintentionally misunderstood it.

I am not trying to ban psychopathic points of view from discussion here. Far from it. I just hope that this forum will evolve into a place for serious discussion about MANY topics in the realm of human psychology, not just psychopaths and what they believe about themselves or about life. After all, only two or three people in a hundred are psychopathic, so why should this forum be so focused on that one kind of mind.

Psychopaths, and even their groupies (Toby) are welcome here, and it is never a question of themes which I personally want to see pursued as Whitewolf erroneously believes. But there is a lot going on in the human mind--certainly psychopathy is only a very small fraction of it. Let's give psychopathy as a topic a rest for a while and see where this forum might go. There are intelligent people checking in here daily. I want to see what that collection of talent might produce.

This does not exclude psychopaths at all. It just means that psychopathy as a central focus has had lots of space here, and now it seems time for other interests to get a turn. Just to be clear, this does not mean to exclude the expression of the psychopathic p.o.v. which is a part of life and an important factor philosophically and ethically. It simply means that psychopathy as a central theme has already been well explored here (practically with pornographic interest by some curious contributors who seem to want to get off on the very idea of freedom from guilt), and now I would like to see discussion move in other directions. Not ones that I choose, by the way (Whitewolf), but simply others.

Website: www.dr-robert.com

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Sorry, I was just curious. :)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ambition is an intriguing response. I would define ambition as a strong desire for material success.

I would never have said that ambition is the opposite of love, but I just realize that I would never have said it because I wouldn't have thought to verbalize it that way even though I've lived that way! and I realize it only just now.

If you were to say to me that I turned my back on my ambitions when I chose to (try to learn to) love, I would be hard pressed to argue the point, now that I think about it through this filter. Somehow, I felt that ambition stood in the way of love, that the two were mutually exclusive.

Very interesting response - thank you very much.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ecce Homo
My word is omi, which is Yoruban


Now, this is interesting. Do you actually speak Yoruban or are you making a point? If so, how'd you get Christian parents? Very curious ^.^

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Unknown and Toby:

I am American, born and raised. I pulled the Yoruba example out of my yahoo for didactic purposes only. The only reason I know anything about anything Yoruban is due to my initiation into Santeria some years ago during my seeker period.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Oh right, I can't believe I went for that... :)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ecce Homo
Unknown and Toby:

I am American, born and raised. I pulled the Yoruba example out of my yahoo for didactic purposes only. The only reason I know anything about anything Yoruban is due to my initiation into Santeria some years ago during my seeker period.


I figured :P

Maferefun Ifa.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

unknown
Maferefun Ifa.


Nice! That brings back memories. I would have been dedicated to Obatala if I'd gone on to becoming a full fledged santero.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Ecce Homo

What I was referring to is beyond emotion, although it certainly includes emotion. It is not an ideal to aspire to or a fantasy to deride. It is that which exists prior to thought, encompasses thought and remains when thought ceases. It is you unmasked.


To me, you reject reality and constitute it with your own, much like drug addicts, because something happened that made you reject it. To you, you see a reality which escapes from others. I think we are both right, which is fine.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
To me, you reject reality and constitute it with your own, much like drug addicts, because something happened that made you reject it. To you, you see a reality which escapes from others.


Yeah, I'm going to go ahead and assume this is why there is no resonance... You think I'm a drug addict without the drugs! LOL! The universe has a lovely sense of humor.

I think we are both right, which is fine.


And this is how we just get on with it, no? :-)

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
So ecco's posts reaffirm your own beliefs? I actually agree with him on many occasions, i meant that i find his way of elaborating everything to the max boring. Maybe it's because i've studied journalism, purely on amateur basis, and gotten "used" to keeping it "short and to the point" and thus find it somewhat annoying spending 10 minutes to read what could be a single paragraph. Oh well, i didn't mean it offensively to anyone, i was just curious.


I doubt anyone took offense to that :) While I reserve the right to suggest his thoughts don't resonate with yours, I now see more what you were saying, perhaps.

I, too, tend to be very verbose because our words are so limited. A short statement can contain an inordinate amount of meaning, but unless one's audience is inclined to really think - I mean as in consider all the nuances that the statement brings to the table - the majority of the meaning is lost.

Consider the man who asks his teacher, "Teacher, why do I always end up with useless women who just use me and leave me?" The teacher replies, "Dogs hunt b*tches." The man may think, then, that all women are just that way. The enlightened man may think, then, that something about his own behaviour attracts the sort of women one doesn't take home to mother.

Goodness, I go to pick my daughter up from school, and you all got quite wordy! I'll have to catch up on the rest of this thread after homework.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

unknown


Consider the man who asks his teacher, "Teacher, why do I always end up with useless women who just use me and leave me?" The teacher replies, "Dogs hunt b*tches." The man may think, then, that all women are just that way. The enlightened man may think, then, that something about his own behaviour attracts the sort of women one doesn't take home to mother.


The second example is exactly how i would take it and is exactly how i communicate with people. It works for me as it's easy to weed out people who are simple and those that actually think.

EDIT: I also understand it's a terrible way to communicate purely by text as many meanings are conveyd through tone of voice, body language and pronunciation.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Hexi
What i said is how i see "pure. unconditional love". I understand it, intellectually, but i have never felt it or anything close to it. I see it as an idle fantasy, an ideal.


Here is a short, concise statement which is difficult to "understand." Is this due to a difference in our languages or how we see the world or what? I don't know.

I can say, and mean it entirely, that pure, unconditional love is an ideal, but I could never say that it is an idle fantasy.

Even before I knew what love was on a personal level, I believed in the idea of it, recognized the great wisdom of humanity and considered it an ideal, and ultimately learned to experience it in my life. None of which would have been possible had I written it off as an idle fantasy in the beginning.

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

Toby
Ecce, how did you get to be so... I don't know.. your answers are just so... kind of... you know what I mean. Wisdom-ous (?)… Did you just suddenly one day become enlightened…


Wisdom-ous! Awesome. I love the creation of new words!

I pretty much answered this question in my comment to Unknown. I didn’t start out looking for truth, but in the end, truth is what I found.

And by the way Toby, you are just as “enlightened” as I am. Another truth that I have come to see is that everyone is equally “enlightened”. Everyone sees what I see because everyone is “that”. In fact, there is no everyone in the ultimate sense. There is only One and It always sees Itself. Neither I, nor Unknown nor anyone else is special. The only thing stopping everyone from seeing who they are is their belief in ego (the thoughts most people mistake for their self).

Re: Life and Love in the Here and Now

And by the way Toby, you are just as “enlightened” as I am. Another truth that I have come to see is that everyone is equally “enlightened”. Everyone sees what I see because everyone is “that”. In fact, there is no everyone in the ultimate sense. There is only One and It always sees Itself. Neither I, nor Unknown nor anyone else is special. The only thing stopping everyone from seeing who they are is their belief in ego (the thoughts most people mistake for their self).


That's a nice way of thinking. :)

Wisdom-ous! Awesome. I love the creation of new words!


Thanks! I was going to say Wisdom-full, but that would've just been stupid... LOL


Neither I, nor Unknown nor anyone else is special.


Oh! :-(

The only thing stopping everyone from seeing who they are is their belief in ego (the thoughts most people mistake for their self).


Yes, I agree with you there.