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Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Your wrong, and I hate you!
:D

They are some what circular, when you're talking in a conversation about religion, it comes down to opinion. Imagine two folks arguing about which is better: Oranges or Lemons... Where could it go? Neither one would surrender their opinion, unless it was to shut the other up. With subjects such as whats hotter the sun or a light-bulb you could look at facts, with opinion you can't.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
They are some what circular, when you're talking in a conversation about religion, it comes down to opinion. Imagine two folks arguing about which is better: Oranges or Lemons... Where could it go?


It's the "you say tomayto, I say tomahto" syndrome, isn't it?

Neither one would surrender their opinion, unless it was to shut the other up.


And even then the opinion isn't really surrendered, is it? The person mutely walks away, muttering to himself about how right he is and how wrong the other person is. The deeper question is, why? Why are religious opinions held so strongly that when they appear to be opposed, a murderously defensive anger so often arises? I'm not just talking the conventionally religious either. What about the passionate atheist who is willing to disdain other humans in his efforts to prove his intellectual superiority? Or the devout New Ager who refuses to question her own need to cling to iconoclastic beliefs that oppose the so called religious status quo of her community?

Why is the need to "be right" by proving someone else wrong so important to so many?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

It's the "you say tomayto, I say tomahto" syndrome, isn't it?


It's tomahto. :-)

People love to be right, or more correctly, think they're right. Humans are programmed to seek answers to lifes questions, and 'religion' often appears to answer many of those questions, so people adopt a certain religion without any forethought, then argue with others about there religion and throw verses at them thinking it's somehow helping.


I hold religion close, as many others do, so when it's hard to take when someone, without even having read any of the bible, starts arguing how they're right and you're wrong and then start reeling of a whole load scientific studies apparently "disproving" God.
I have thrown the odd verse in when arguing with people on the subject of God, The one verse that stumbles people is there bible referring to the earth as a "circle"... Over one thousand years before any man discovered, or even theorised, the earth was indeed round.

I like debating religion with people, I could all day long, but It aggravates me when people wont even take my opinions/views into consideration.

You're good to talk to, I wish you posted on here more often. :D

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
You're good to talk to, I wish you posted on here more often. :D


Thanks man. Right back at ya!

And I’ve been there. I used to feel all sorts of aggravation when I believed people should take my opinions seriously. An even bigger one for me was believing that I needed respect! Talk about drama! LOL. I love peace now. I value it, both within myself and as an expression of self at its deepest. So I don’t do the whole arguing about religion thing anymore. It just doesn’t work for me. Besides which, as Whitewolf pointed out, I have found that it is futile to argue with anyone about their strongly held opinions, religion being chief among them. Having said that, I think it's great that it works for you though!

But I will say this: IT'S TOMAYTO!!! ;-)

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

LOL
I like discussion and debate, but more often that not it will descend into arguing.
It usually leads to cognitive dissonance, but it's hard to resist when people refuse to hear you out.

Besides which, as Whitewolf pointed out, I have found that it is futile to argue with anyone about their strongly held opinions, religion being chief among them.


I pointed that out! :D

Ecce, why do you think people believe in God?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Ecce, why do you think people believe in God?


My most honest answer is I don’t know.

Now to move from honesty to speculation (in other words, fantastically delusional thinking), I’d guess that people believe in God for a variety of reasons: it’s how they were raised, they perhaps had a mystical experience of a numinous “Other”, they saw something happen that they can only describe as miraculous, they have examined what they perceive as evidence and came to the intellectual conclusion that *fill in the blank deity* must be real, they were able to turn their lives completely around when they started believing, they heard a still small voice coming from within the first time they cried out to heaven in desperation, and so on. The reasons are plentiful. The multiple beliefs about God are like a mosaic or a tapestry of faith. They are beautiful expressions of aspiration and hope. Yes, these beliefs can set the world ablaze when held as absolute in and of themselves, but they can and have also made the world a better place to be for untold billions. It’s all good. Literally.

Toby, what is your faith, specifically?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

My faith? I call myself a Christian Protestant, but I'm not sure. I read the bible, I do as it says, but I'm not too sure I would specifically 'fit in' with any religious group.

My sister is a Catholic, A religion I can't help but dislike. My father isn't religious at all, Neither my mother. My wife... The same as me really. And my two children aren't religious either.

When you say that the "beliefs can set the world abaze" thats very similar to what people tell me - That religion has caused mass suffering, torture, rape, murder, but it's not religions fault. Not at all.
Its crazed peoples misinterpreations of religion, Be it the Bible, the Qur'an or the Avesta.
It's peoples misinterpretations that are dangerous, not faith. Agree?

But to answer your last question more specifically, I would identify as a Protestant Christian. :D

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
When you say that the "beliefs can set the world abaze" thats very similar to what people tell me - That religion has caused mass suffering, torture, rape, murder, but it's not religions fault. Not at all.


Ah, but notice I also said “when held as absolute, in and of themselves”. Holding any thought as absolutely true tends to automatically set up conflict. For every thought that can be believed there must surely be its opposite, hence the automatic conflict of one sort or the other. And I do mean any thought, which was I included atheists and New Agers in my previous comment. It seems to me that Socrates was onto something when he said that the wise man knows that he doesn’t know. Admitting our ignorance is the beginning of wisdom. Doing the opposite, asserting that our beliefs, whatever they are, are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, is a primary ingredient behind much of the conflict the world experiences on all levels, including and especially on the inside of our own minds.

Its crazed peoples misinterpreations of religion… It's peoples misinterpretations that are dangerous, not faith. Agree?


The above paragraph answered this. I don’t agree or disagree. I notice what seems to be happening and why and made a comment on it. I also admit that I could be completely, 100% incorrect. For me, it isn’t the misinterpretation. It’s the absolute interpretation that makes the difference. And this absoluteness can be applied to all sorts of beliefs, especially the ones we hold about ourselves. This is what makes sane people crazy! ;-)

I would identify as a Protestant Christian. :D


Do you enjoy it? Has it enriched your life?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Do I enjoy it? YES
Has it enriched my life? YES

I became a Christian because one day, while incredibly bored, I set myself the challenge of reading the entire bible in 3 days. I did. And I decideed then to become a Christian, after hearing the word of God
"So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."(Romans 10:17)
This line couldn't illustrate what I mean any better.
I hesitate to add bible quotes; most people hate reading them. :D

Doing the opposite, asserting that our beliefs, whatever they are, are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, is a primary ingredient behind much of the conflict the world experiences on all levels, including and especially on the inside of our own minds.


I am taught throught my religion that the Bible is the word of God, perfect and without fault, So yes, I do believe that what I read in the Bible is absolute truth. I don't mind admitting that I don't know, you can't know everything in life, And that's why (I assume) many people convert to Christianity. As i've said before we are wired to seek answers to lifes questions, and religion answers many of those questions.
Didn't socrates object to democracy? (I'm not trying to take a shot at you, It's an actual question that I can't seem to get an answer too from anywhere)
:-)

I don't think I have asked this to you before, But do you believe in God, Ecce?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
I hesitate to add bible quotes; most people hate reading them. :D


Puhleeze! Use as many Bible quotes as you like. I’m quite familiar with it myself, having grown up in a Christian home. I even attend a Christian church now myself.

I am taught throught my religion that the Bible is the word of God, perfect and without fault, So yes, I do believe that what I read in the Bible is absolute truth.


Ok. You say this works for you and I’m certainly glad it has. I also notice that this is a perfect example of the dynamic I was referring to earlier. If you state that you believe that the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then this belief automatically comes attached with its opposite, which is that the Bible is in fact the word of man and completely fallible. You see? So anyone who comes to you and states that opposite belief is in automatic conflict with you on some level. Your belief about the Bible needs defending, hence the presence of Christian apologists. Defending against whom? Why, secularists and skeptics and atheists and liberal Christians of course. There is no end to the list of people against whom a defense has to be constructed to “protect” this belief. All of which is ultimately fine. It is neither right nor wrong as far as I’m concerned. I’m just notating how this dynamic seems to appear and play itself out. Conflict must come into existence when a belief like this about the Bible is held. It starts at the level of friendly argument, which moves to the not so friendly argument, which in other circles and in some people, will escalate into verbal violence, which builds the bonfire in a select few for physical violence, which has all too often ended in all out war between civilizations. Behold, the power of belief! :-)

Didn't socrates object to democracy?


Um… I don’t know. I quickly Googled it and noticed that several places do say that he was against democracy, but the Wikipedia article also states that no one is sure about this.

But do you believe in God, Ecce?


No. I don’t believe in God, as in I don’t have faith that there is a supreme being out there who has written a holy scripture and has sent his son to die on a cross or has spoken specifically to certain men throughout history like Mohammed, etc. I used to, but I don’t anymore. I have come to see however that there is an infinite intelligence that appears as everything within itself. And if that doesn’t make sense to you, think of the writings of old time Christian mystics like Meister Eckhart or Zen Buddhist teachings and so on.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

You attend church? Yet, you don't believe in God? Why? Just interested? :D

I have to say this - God didn't write the Bible, he doesn't have hands. No, I'm joking I know what you mean. :-)
And if you read the bible, Jesus didn't die on a cross. Crucifixion in that time would've been on an upward stake. Crosses as a use of crucifixion happenede much later. They still crucify people in Saudi Arabia, even to this day.

I don't like arguin with people. I like to debate, but often they'll just dismiss or laugh at the belief that I hold, And that, I don't like.

Do you believe in anything then? Afterlife? Evolution? Ghosts? Aliens? The supernatural? LOL
Or are you one of those people who don't mind admitting they just don't know, and probably never will?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

You attend church? Yet, you don't believe in God? Why? Just interested? :D


For me God is reality. The Absolute is also the space within which reality arises. Reality is One. But these words don’t cover it. It’s been my experience that words cannot convey this, yet words are all we have. So yes, I use the conventional term God to describe this Absolute Reality because I get that it is a word most will understand, only from their own reference point. And I go to church now to be of service to the people there. I don’t have to coordinate my “beliefs” with others in order to love them or to help them, if I can. Love transcends belief systems of all kinds.

I don't like arguin with people. I like to debate, but often they'll just dismiss or laugh at the belief that I hold, And that, I don't like.


Then why debate them if you know in advance they will often respond in ways you don’t like?

Do you believe in anything then?


I have beliefs you might say, but they don’t have me. Beliefs are thoughts and thoughts are like blades of grass to me, here today and gone tomorrow. Or more accurately, gone in the next millisecond. There isn’t any attempt to hold on to a particular set of thoughts and call that truth anymore. Reality is far bigger and wiser than any thought system can contain, in my experience.

Or are you one of those people who don't mind admitting they just don't know, and probably never will?


Actually no, I’m not. It’s just that the known, the knower and the knowing are one. I imagine this sounds as if I am speaking in riddles, but I’m not. Ironically, I’m speaking literally.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

You sound exactly like a SZ except you're not paranoid the government is out to get you. Just think about it Ecce... we are on the verge of your mental breakdown. Hold old are you? I hear taking LSD can draw out mental illnesses you may have gotten later in life anyway. So don't take it!!! LOL

If you are under 30... I'm excited! I'm witnessing the onset of SZ.

Your mind obviously lacks true organization or you wouldn't struggle to explain your thought structure. How long before that disorganization consumes your sanity?

For the record. I called it.

I'm not trying to make you said. Just excited to know I can research you before your fragile mind snaps like a twig and you become.. more reasonable in structure.

Let me know if you ever have... a moment of extreme clarity where everything just seems to snap into place and you finally "get it".

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Then why debate them if you know in advance they will often respond in ways you don’t like?


I like to believe that all people out there are not the same, That not all people will have the same knee-jerk response to the discussion of religion, and that one day I may find someone who doesn't say 'booooring' and start to argue when I talk of my beliefs.

How old are you? If you don't mind my asking?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
Then why debate them if you know in advance they will often respond in ways you don’t like?


I like to believe that all people out there are not the same, That not all people will have the same knee-jerk response to the discussion of religion, and that one day I may find someone who doesn't say 'booooring' and start to argue when I talk of my beliefs.


Oh that's total crap.

I told you I was special and had to listen to your unknowledgable lecture about how I'm not. Whatever. We'll see who's crying in the corner ******* himself and who's killing all those Russians. Probably be in your nation... again. Trying to bail you losers out. Honestly... When are you ****** gonna learn how to fight proper? And if I hear even one person shout "tally ho" I'm going to collapse to the ground laughing.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

I'm not saying that you aren't special, just not for the reasons you say, or so I think.

If I say something you start to dislike, don't continue to read. I'm not forcing you to.

Our nations has been invaded only twice. And neither times did you help. WW1 and WW2 - We fought on our own.
We can fight, we controlled your nation for a long time.

Tally-Ho? That's the best stereotype for British people America can come up with? Come On!
Tally-Ho is used mainly when Fox hunting, when a deer is spotted, and It's also used widely by NASA.

I don't mind that my opinions value is "null" to you - If you hate me that much, don't read my posts.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

whitewolf don't hate you man.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

No, we are the best of friends. :D
He might not hate me, but he doesn't like me.
And you know what? Meh.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Whitewolf, as you know because I’ve said it several times now, I don’t debate or argue. I won’t waste either of our time “defending” myself or trying to convince you of anything. I will suggest instead that you do some research on mystical literature from the various world religions, certain non-dual philosophies from the East in particular, and epistemological questions in philosophy. This stuff is hard to convey in general, especially to someone who has not done this kind of search. If you were also genuinely interested in understanding, you might want to consider relaxing your ideas about what you think is and isn’t possible. For you, the idea of oneness sounds absurd, even insane, much like the idea of unconditional love I imagine. Which is ironic for a theist. I suppose God’s unconditional love for you is as “schizo” as mine is, at least in your mind. Which, as I have also said repeatedly, is fine.

Toby, I’m in my mid 30’s. I was once a seeker. I sought the truth thru all sorts of isms and ologies, including atheistic materialism and had all kinds of experiences. As far as my stance in the world, belief systems aside, what I am left with is the wisdom of love and compassion for all. I know. It’s crazy to some and heretical to others. But oddly enough, I’m ok with that. I stopped needing other people’s respect ages ago.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

You don't debate? How do you get anywhere?


LOVE, THE TRUE BELIEF by Brian Clement

"A life without love seems hardly worth living. It's so important for each of us to grasp the understanding of the depth of feeling that can be generated on all levels of life, through love."

Love should be the most important thing in everyones lives, as humans we spend most of our lives seeking love, Love is the foundation of all worthwhile activity.

Do you have self-love? Odd question, I know.

Whitewolf -
You don't like the way I quote things do you?
I found one more fitting to you...
“Be yourself, don't take anyone's ****, and never let them take you alive.” :D

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
You don't debate? How do you get anywhere?


Whoops! Forgot about this. For me, using debate as a means to get somewhere was a surefire way to get nowhere fast. In my own experience, debate has been used by debaters as a means of confirming what they already wish to believe and not as a means of finding clarity. I value internal clarity more than I value proving myself right.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Tell me, Ecce, have you found love? Do you have a wife, girlfriend, or kids? Or are you a virgin? :P British or American? Real first name, please? Thx

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

You are way to curious for your own good.
LOL

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Toby
LOVE, THE TRUE BELIEF by Brian Clement

"A life without love seems hardly worth living. It's so important for each of us to grasp the understanding of the depth of feeling that can be generated on all levels of life, through love."

Love should be the most important thing in everyones lives, as humans we spend most of our lives seeking love, Love is the foundation of all worthwhile activity.


I “love” the quote Toby. It’s awesome and has the ring of truth. But then again, from a slightly different angle, from my own experience it isn’t possible to live without love. That, to me, would be like living without reality, which again, is impossible.

By the way, I also appreciate the display of your own wisdom in there Toby.

Do you have self-love? Odd question, I know.


On the deepest level, there is nothing but love. But back to normal speak, yes, I suppose I do.

Psycho1 – with an auspicious name like that you won’t be surprised if I don’t give you very personal information. ;-) At least, not at this particular moment. I will say that I have experienced romantic love on several occasions, was married and am now divorced (learned LOADS from that experience), do not have any kids (that I know of) and, to move back into abnormal speak, love is not something you find. Love is what you are. As such love is far deeper than any romantic notions or feelings about it.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

By the way, I also appreciate the display of your own wisdom in there Toby.


Thank you, I wish there were more people out there like you... ;)

But back to normal speak... back into abnormal speak.....


Lol :D

It's hard to imagine a life completely void of love, but as you said, they've never experienced love so don't know otherwise and have never experienced any different...


Psycho1 - Odd choice of name... Conjures up all sorts of Hannibal Lecter type images...

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

But back to normal speak... back into abnormal speak.....


LOL! Right? I realized, as my previous comment to Whitewolf indicated also, that I am speaking about things that frankly most people haven’t even begun to consider. What is obvious to me, after years of searching for something bedrock within religion and spirituality, is the exact opposite of obvious to most others. Hence the riddle-like speech. I apologize for that. I don’t speak of what I have seen much in my offline life for precisely this reason. I may be winding my commenting down on this forum because of this. I need to focus on embodying the peace and love I talk about here.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

I apologize for that


Don't apologize, I understand you! :D

I understand what you mean, while understanding what Whitewolf does...
I see why Whitewolf says that you speak in "riddle like speech", but also I know that although it sounds like riddles it is infact the literal truth as you see it.

I may be winding my commenting down on this forum because of this...


:( I will miss your posts here if you leave, you're one of the good'uns. :D

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

I understand you! :D


Ah good. There isn’t any point in using guru-speak if no one understands, is there? There isn’t any ultimate point to using it at all, but again, that’s another story…

So you asked me why I go to church. Do you? Go to church I mean? I wonder how many Christians are out there who are like you. And by that I mean, per your own words, you group yourself in with the Protestants but you also know they don’t quite reflect everything you believe in. I say that because in one of your previous comments you say you don’t “specifically fit in with any religious group”. I told you why I don’t. Why don’t you?

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Yes, I do attend a church, every sunday without fail.

Why don't I fit in with any religious group, do you mean?
I feel that a person should make their own informed decision and personal interpretation of Bible. Protestantism isn't for me, and I don't feel any specific religious group is. They all have at least one specific view on a subject that I disagree with. For example, I fell out with the preist over my opinion on abortion, I am pro-choice and he, was not.
Needless to say, I didn't feel welcome there anymore. :( LOL

Ecce, are you in Britain at the moment? Just curious, feel free to withhold it if you wish. :D

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Protestantism isn't for me, and I don't feel any specific religious group is.


Yet you go to church faithfully. Interesting. Do you feel alienated at all when you go, or do you just enjoy what you are experiencing while you are there?

Nope, I’m not in Britain. I’m in America, land of the free, home of the brave.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

I attend a protestant church because I feel protestantism is where I best fit in. Church allows me to feel I am closer to God, and participate in group prayer. Although I don't always feel completely comofortable, It's where I think I best fit in.

Nope, I’m not in Britain. I’m in America, land of the free, home of the brave.


Great! And you didn't throw an insult at Britain?! Yay. :D

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

See, why would I throw stones at the UK? In fact, it's one of the countries I'd love to visit before my time on Earth is up. It's on my Bucket List.

The world is one great big ole family as far as I'm concerned!

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

Christian views aside, we are all supposed to of started out in Africa as one race, and then spread to the corners of the Earth, so yes we are one big family. We're all incestuous. :D

Thanks, most people upon hearing I'm from Britain, usually go on about how British accents sound and how **** my country is. It's one of the only things I let get to me too much.

Re: Why do people believe in a God?

KKG4
Why do people believe in God? Christian and un-Christian views appreciated... Thanks.


First, let's define God as the thing which represents the divine to us mere mortals - in Platonic terms the ideal form of a human.

Next, let's consider that the appeal to a higher authority is one of humankind's strongest, albeit logically flawed, arguments. The concept of God is a very useful thing in a parent's or governmental type ruler's arsenal.

Finally, realize that the world is positively crawling with people and we've GOT to get along to have any kind of peaceful existence.

So, God is very real.

He is the concept of something better than myself to which I aspire to become like, knowing that I will fail but recognizing that the closer I get to this ideal, the better a human I will be.

He is the measure by which you reflect upon your life on your deathbed so that you can die peacefully, knowing you have led a "good" life.

He is the example by which you pattern your behaviour governing interaction with other humans.

He is present in every culture and every civilization since time began. He is at once a creation of our own invention and more than any of us could ever be.

Ecce Homo
I was once a seeker. I sought the truth thru all sorts of isms and ologies, including atheistic materialism and had all kinds of experiences. As far as my stance in the world, belief systems aside, what I am left with is the wisdom of love and compassion for all. I know. It’s crazy to some and heretical to others. But oddly enough, I’m ok with that. I stopped needing other people’s respect ages ago.

No. I don’t believe in God, as in I don’t have faith that there is a supreme being out there who has written a holy scripture and has sent his son to die on a cross or has spoken specifically to certain men throughout history like Mohammed, etc. I used to, but I don’t anymore. I have come to see however that there is an infinite intelligence that appears as everything within itself.


I could have written just that, verbatim.