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Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

This forum has evolved beautifully,
having become a meeting place for intelligent, honest conversation
about interesting matters. I am impressed also with the civility and
cordiality evinced by contributors here, which seem to me to be of a
higher level than I have seen on other unmoderated, totally open
discussion boards. Yes, there have been a couple of exceptions to
this gentility, but flamers and fools don't seem able to gain
much of a foothold here.


I would be interested in hearing some
replies to this question:


What does it mean to believe
something? When you look with honesty into your own mind, what do you
believe, and what is the root source of those beliefs?


Be well.

Website: www.dr-robert.com

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

I believe that there must be something in the human mind which exists there at birth that craves contact with or knowledge of an all powerful protector which is called "God," "Allah," or whatever. Even though athiests try to say that this is all foolishness, I am not so sure of that. Yes, I do not believe there is an old man in the sky who hears prayers and judges us at our death, but I do believe that some organizing power which is greater than simple chance is responsible for what we call "intelligence."
Some people use their own share of this "intelligence" to try to prove that existentialism is the highest form of philosophical understanding. I believe this is a kind of arrogance.
I arrived at this belief by noticing that the same cultural forms arise everywhere and always did even when cultures were separated by time, space, and lack of communication.
By the way, Doctor, I agree that this forum is great. I visit several forums about psychology daily, although I don't often comment in them, and this is by far the best mannered and most intelligent of the bunch. I think the many people who think of psychopaths as demons or criminals would be shocked to read some of the perceptive posts on this forum, and I wish they could.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

dr. robert
What does it mean to believe something? When you look with honesty into your own mind, what do youbelieve, and what is the root source of those beliefs?


This could get weighty, couldn’t it? Also, believe about what? You didn’t specify. Anyway, I will refrain my usual instinct to go on and on and on about epistemology and my scattered and admittedly scant knowledge of neuroscience and philosophy and so on and keep it personal.

For me, belief is about propositions concerning reality. I ask myself regularly if my beliefs are in accord with reality. Beliefs are important because, combined with emotion, they determine action and the combined actions of billions of human beings determine the fate of the world. I understand that my beliefs can never be perfectly coherent nor will they explain everything there is. I also acknowledge that complete certainty is for all practical purposes impossible. I can only do the best I can with them. I’ve adopted an idea I read a few years ago of thinking of my internal belief space as a kind of Spartan meritocracy, where only the fittest beliefs survive. Fitness is determined by a belief’s coherence, predictive accuracy and explanatory power. Once I see a belief fails to meet those standards, that belief is dropped in favor of one that does a better job. Sometimes changing a belief has been difficult. Once upon a time I was a true believer myself, a born again Xtian. Leaving Xtianity behind was hard for me, but I did it because I saw that those beliefs no longer worked as a viable explanation for anything. Being honest with myself is the closest I can come to anything resembling ethical.

The root source… I suppose that could have several answers for me. Society certainly is one source, as is my family of origin. And admittedly, my genetic predisposition sort of bends me toward certain beliefs and away from others. Some of my beliefs about people could be labeled as cynical, for instance, rather than optimistic. So in a sense, the American ideal of self determination is a myth. No man can truly be self made, can they? Is there a “me” to begin with… But that goes into other, rabbit hole like subjects so I’ll quit while I’m ahead.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Daniel Birdick
Beliefs are important because, combined with emotion, they determine action and the combined actions of billions of human beings determine the fate of the world.


Yes! This is why discussions like this are important. I see a long spectrum which traces an arc from a point of total "Jesus-freak" style credulity on one end, to a point of complete nihilism on the other. Each of us occupies one small point on that spectrum, and, although each of us is very small in that sense, in another sense our words and other actions may have powerful and unforeseen consequences.

For example, Daniel, if you once embraced Christianity, but now eschew it, your words here and in other fora may influence others to listen more carefully to their own doubts instead of seeing their doubts as a "crisis of faith," and so struggling to maintain credulity ("faith") in the face of them. Eventually, under that influence they may also become, like the "you" you have presented here, a person of intelligent humility, which, in my view, would lead, multiplied many times, to a saner and more enjoyable human society.

To take another example, if I, in my role as psychotherapist, can understand that human beings seem to lack free will (as we have discussed), but nevertheless might be amenable to helpful influences, particular ones which are presented tactfully and at the correct moment (which is a large part of the art of psychotherapy), I will be able to continue with my work without falling into the despair and cynicism which could redound from seeing the automatic nature of the human "will," including, of course, ones own.

Many of the self-described "psychopaths" on this forum seem to tend towards the nihilistic end of the spectrum, while many of the so-called "normals" seem very quick to embrace all kinds of unsubstantiated beliefs. This has me wondering if the same kinds of brain differences which might be responsible—at least in part—for "psychopathy" might also conduce to a kind of cynicism, or if "psychopaths" don't necessarily start out with such tendencies towards the nihilistic, but become cynical in the face of a culture which seems to depend so heavily on foolish sentimentality and religious credulity, and which rejects them because they do not square with the majority cultural norms. I have no information about this. It is just an open question.

Website: www.dr-robert.com

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Thank you Dr. That is very kind of you. On the other forum I regularly comment on as Daniel Birdick, I was just called evil, with a rotting brain for good measure by a crusading normal. A few days later, I am called a “person of intelligent humility”, who might even, shocker of shockers, be of service to humanity at large. It’s all so dang funny! But again and with sincerity, thank you.

Dr. Robert
This has me wondering if the same kinds of brain differences which might be responsible—at least in part—for "psychopathy" might also conduce to a kind of cynicism, or if "psychopaths" don't necessarily start out with such tendencies towards the nihilistic, but become cynical in the face of a culture which seems to depend so heavily on foolish sentimentality and religious credulity, and which rejects them because they do not square with the majority cultural norms. I have no information about this. It is just an open question.


I don’t know. That is close to the nurture/nature question, isn’t it. Again in my case, I have felt like a bit of an alien for as long as I can remember, even and especially when I am with my family. I cannot remember ever feeling as if I belonged and then suddenly feeling cast out because of something that happened at school or at home. Even my father told me once that he thought I was always hard to get close to because of some kind of innate aloofness I have carried around since I was little. So my outsider feeling seems to be something I was born with. I do however theorize that it is my very outsider status that makes it easier for me to see the ways in which people fool themselves and each other. It’s always easier to see things with greater objectivity when you are on the outside of a situation, right? Well I subjectively feel as if I am on the outside of humanity itself, even though I know that biologically speaking, I am not. So I see what they do not because they are on the inside of their beliefs, inhabiting them, feeling the emotions that accompany those beliefs fully.

It is my theory that most people equate their sense of self with their religious/moral/political/social beliefs, opinions and preferences. If who they are is what they believe, then when anyone threatens the validity of those beliefs they are threatening the person who holds them, right? Of course, that isn’t actually true, but if you believe on some deep, unexamined level that it is true, wouldn’t you feel defensive if your beliefs were threatened by “arrogant atheists” for instance or militant materialists (whatever that means) or anyone who blatantly disagreed with you on your most cherished values (which is just another kind of belief)? To defend your values is to defend yourself, no?

Nihilism… Well, I’ll say this, even though you know this already, that plenty of people with little to no conscience are religious. White Wolf says that he is religious for instance. My father is as well, even though he was quite the sneaky abuser in his day. I also suspect that there may be plenty of folk out there who are quite nice people even though they ascribe to a kind of nihilistic philosophy. So I don’t know if it is fair to say that having or not having a conscience can be equated with the presence or absence of nihilism. In my case, my nihilistic thinking stems not only from my natural predisposition, but also from my period of trying to be normal. Not just act normal mind you, but be normal. Like I said, I’ve always been the outsider, even when I was faking it well and made myself popular among my peers. Especially then. That didn’t really faze me until I got out of high school. When I turned twenty, I had the first of what was to be many epiphanies about myself and the world around me. I saw that I was empty. I really saw it. That’s when my search began and my first stop was Xtianity. My Xtianity and my later religious explorations were part and parcel of my attempt to create something sincerely normal within me. I think I was trying to turn myself into a “real boy”, just like Pinocchio. When I was a fundamentalist, I was sincere. I believed it all, hook, line and sinker and it obviously did not stick. Even when I was a true believer though, I had to actively fight down more “anti-social” thoughts. I believed it was my “sin nature” I was combating, as I was taught. And yes, I’ll admit, I even thought a “demon” was attacking me. I know. It’s laughable now, but at the time and within that worldview, it made sense. I tried during this period to believe in the kinds of things that normal people said they believed in, like truth, justice and the American way. I tried fighting my instinct toward realism by believing that humanity was not what it clearly is. But in the end, I had to accept the truth about both myself, humanity at large and the values people say they hold dear. In my view humanity in general cannot be “helped”. Most of them can only be manipulated into doing things that are in their best long term interests. The ones that can be “helped” are probably already in the space where they know that looking on the inside is the place to start when wanting to change.

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? Are my “cynical” (realistic in my view) beliefs about humanity the product of a childhood dominated by an abusive but religious father and neurotically self delusional mother? Or is my sociopathic-like mindset a part of my father’s genetic legacy? I think I shared all of above with you as a way of demonstrating the point that even though I did make an effort to change as a means of filling the “emptiness”, in the end I could only ever be what I am. No amount of changing beliefs could make me something else. But is that part of the point of your thread? To ask about change and how change is effected within people? Do you really think people change or are they more or less trying on various ways of being the same person? Could a person learn to listen to their doubts and by doing so become something else, or are they merely hearing the innate instincts they are trying to deny? In other words, are they denying who and what they are when they attempt to quiet the doubts?

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

dr. robert

I would be interested in hearing some
replies to this question:


What does it mean to believe
something? When you look with honesty into your own mind, what do you
believe, and what is the root source of those beliefs?


Be well.

MINE believe does be that i DOES believes GOD. why DOES i believes GOD? because i does EXPERIENCED God that BE hard to explained but i DOES. i DOES also believes all THEM humanes are GOOD in heart but can also BECOMMED evil but always does GOOD in them. i DOES also believes that them MEDIA does manipulated PEOPLES and i DOES believes in them free will. i DOES believes that you can PULLS goodness from peoples HEARTS. i also DOES knows God does EXISTS because if DOSENT then nothing does CAN explained and ALSO nothing does can has MEANING. and also i does believes THAT peoples can DOES enything if they does WANTS to do THAT. sometimes PEOPLES only does IMAGINES yours doesnt can DOES enything and says things like "world is BAD and dosent can be HEALED and ours LEADERS dosent do enything theirs IS all roten" but they DOSENT do enything themself and DOSENT thinks of them LEADERS like HUMANES. Only STATUES. and THAT why does LEADERS acts like STATUES and does USES manipulate peoples TO does GOOD but then when they DOES manipulated then they DOES becommed BAD already when GOTTED where does CAN does good. but also CAN does becommed good and not them ALL does happens that only DOES to some. i DOES believes that does HUMAN life be MOST important than ENYTHING.

Daniel Birdick
I tried fighting my instinct toward realism by believing that humanity was not what it clearly is. But in the end, I had to accept the truth about both myself, humanity at large and the values people say they hold dear. In my view humanity in general cannot be “helped”. Most of them can only be manipulated into doing things that are in their best long term interests. The ones that can be “helped” are probably already in the space where they know that looking on the inside is the place to start when wanting to change.
it DOSENT be that. always does CAN helped. and ALSO why does you THINKS humanity be BAD? does you HAS enything you DOES can compares IT to? nope then why DOSENT do enything ABOUT it?

~Lega

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Lega:

“There is nothing either good or bad but thinking makes it so.”

Besides, who said anything about humanity being bad? Here are some adjectives that spring to mind when I think of humanity at large: intelligent, rapacious, passionate, violent, cooperative, selfish, striving, curious, social, blind, courageous, sturdy, hopeful, ambitious, creative, short sighted, multi faceted… The list goes on and on. But is humanity bad or evil? In my opinion, no. Humanity is just itself. I do however object to the overly rosy views of the species. That I think is delusional.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

I think that our personal, cultural and religious beliefs limit us if we don't allow them to be influenced continually by scientific findings and by the belief systems of others.
My mind is always open, and I feel no loyalty to the belief systems that I was raised in.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Daniel Birdick
Besides, who said anything about humanity being bad? Here are some adjectives that spring to mind when I think of humanity at large: intelligent, rapacious, passionate, violent, cooperative, selfish, striving, curious, social, blind, courageous, sturdy, hopeful, ambitious, creative, short sighted, multi faceted… The list goes on and on. But is humanity bad or evil? In my opinion, no. Humanity is just itself. I do however object to the overly rosy views of the species. That I think is delusional.
sorry i DID thinked you DID sayed that MOST humanity NOT can be helped so i THINKED you meaned they bad and that COULDED not be helped. what you DID meaned by it THEN? what DOES needed be HELPED? sorry i did MISUDNERSTANDED you probably and i DOES apologizes for it.

Xtine
I think that our personal, cultural and religious beliefs limit us if we don't allow them to be influenced continually by scientific findings and by the belief systems of others.
My mind is always open, and I feel no loyalty to the belief systems that I was raised in.

mine MIND does be OPEN too i does AGREES with yours POST. some PEOPLES does limits and not LEARNTED from belief SYSTEMS.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Lega:

I have read all of your posts on this forum. Are you kidding us with that strange lingo, or is this really the way you talk?
Besides your funny way of writing which I believe must be a joke of some kind, your point of view is terribly judgmental and self righteous. And I hear a nastiness behind it. I suggest you read Doctor Robert's reply to the man who constantly found himself surrounded by sin.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

ernesto446
Lega:

I have read all of your posts on this forum. Are you kidding us with that strange lingo, or is this really the way you talk?
Besides your funny way of writing which I believe must be a joke of some kind, your point of view is terribly judgmental and self righteous. And I hear a nastiness behind it. I suggest you read Doctor Robert's reply to the man who constantly found himself surrounded by sin.
WHAT that does has GOTS to do with what i SAYED in HERE? or ANYWHERE? you just did JUDGED that im DOES be self RIGHTEOUS and JUDGMENTAL but then you DOES did what sayed NOT DO in that link. im DOSENT be judgmental i DOES only tells mine OPINIONS like them IS. im DOES trys help like i SAYED i not FORCES help peoples i does SAYS if they not WANTS help then they can SAYS that. MAYBE you dosent just thing God does EXISTS and that why you say all THEM mean things but that who DOES says nasty things is HIMSELF that things. your probably should LET that hates all OUT or it DOES becommed more HATES. i DOES suggests you does TRYES find REASON for hates and also for hate GOD. maybe it does brings PEACE.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

You still will not say anything about your strange style of writing. I do not believe you talk that way, and I cannot understand why you use all those capital letters. Also, if you read the Doctors link, why not say what you think about it?

As far as God goes, you have a right to believe anything you like, but the reason you gave for your belief is just silly. You said you believe in God because if you did not or if God did not exist nothing would make any sense. First of all, that is not true. Many scientists and other intelligent thinkers,poets, artists, etc, etc, have been able to make sense of this world without bringing God into it at all. In the second place, saying that things would not make sense to you if you did not believe a certain thing does not prove in any way that that thing exists. Maybe you just lack enough imagination to make sense of a world without a god in it.

As I say, Lega, you can believe what you like, but don't expect the rest of us to go along with your God must exist or else logic. That really doesn't make any sense!

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

ernesto446
First of all, that is not true. Many scientists and other intelligent thinkers,poets, artists, etc, etc, have been able to make sense of this world without bringing God into it at all. In the second place, saying that things would not make sense to you if you did not believe a certain thing does not prove in any way that that thing exists. Maybe you just lack enough imagination to make sense of a world without a god in it.
FIRST of all you only DID mentioned that there be INTELIGENT peoples who make sense of WORLD. you not MENTIONED how. then you DOES insulted me. you did FORGETTED mine other REASON i believes in GOD that is because i CAN experiences GOD.

ernesto446
As I say, Lega, you can believe what you like, but don't expect the rest of us to go along with your God must exist or else logic. That really doesn't make any sense!
OKEY but you DOES thinked everyone should GOES with YOUR ideas or logic? if you DOES says something as TRUE everyone DOES has to FOLLOWS but if i DOES says something about GOD it does be NOT TRUE and also SILLY? because YOURS logic is better? you also did SAYED im can BELIEVES in what i DOES wants but then before that you does says i only believes because i DOES not has IMAGINATION. MAYBE yours dosent have IMAGINATION to IMAGINES God so that why you DONT believes. and you not CAN says that is bad SAYED because you did SAYED it yourself too. yours ONLY reason you DOES bullies me is because you DOES thinks im is WRONG. im doesnt ever SAYED that you DOES has accept what i DOES says as TRUE. i only DOES says advice like others DO as well so what wrong with IT but not in OTHERS? they not say either "im is WRONG" or "is just mine OPINION"

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

ernesto446
Lega:

I have read all of your posts on this forum. Are you kidding us with that strange lingo, or is this really the way you talk?
Besides your funny way of writing which I believe must be a joke of some kind, your point of view is terribly judgmental and self righteous. And I hear a nastiness behind it. I suggest you read Doctor Robert's reply to the man who constantly found himself surrounded by sin.


I disagree Ernesto. How rude.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

What do you disagree with exactly Xtine? And what was rude? I am not at all sure what you meant.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Lega:

When I put words in quotation marks like I did before, that is usually but not always me being ironic. Humanity is what it is. I do not hold any great hope that the species will someday finally live up to its most idealistic images of itself. I suppose it could happen, given enough time and great strides in our understanding of the brain and genetics. Otherwise, we are what we are. I see no point in trying to help people become something they have no authentic wish to be.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

What a broad question.

My own truth or belief, as you would call it, would be... Everyone believes in something. It's just human nature to believe in a higher power. Earth, the sun, God.. whatever.

The danger in a belief structure is how and what you are taught. Two people can read the samething and interput totally different messages. One picks up a gun for religious war while the other helps the weak and needy.

Also the information they recieve and learn from should be written in a form easily understood for the reader.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Belief is when you *think* you know and knowing is... well, when you *know* you know. Where does the need to believe in, well, anything comes from is another matter. Many people live in self-delusions because they need to believe in something or someone without any facts to support such claims. Why, i have no idea as i don't believe in anything that i can't confirm with my own observations or logic. If i am unsure of something i'm content in admitting that i don't know.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Hmmm... beliefs. I can say that apart from a few temporary statements that I'm attached to or convinced of, even though I may say I "believe", I simply don't really believe in them. The words "I believe" is simply used by me for grabbing people's attention, for emphasizing certain things or simply, a play at what people think as "beliefs". I use the word "belief" to represent statements and ideas and perceptions I hold for a while, before I'm forced to abandon them or rework them. Or only when I'm feeling extremely cynical or depressed and feel like going for a temporary "emotional ride" before I abandon them. Or when I want to explain something to someone and don't feel like delivering a 20 page thesis. Or quite simply, when I know the other person just is incapable of grasping that huge motherload of logic I use. Or when I'm unable to find a proper word or thought to label something under.

Because for me, I come across so much information once every few days, that it quite simply repeatedly reprograms my sense of reality: sometimes altering it, challenging it or even tearing apart everything. These bits of information all come from different perspectives and fields: medicine, science, geography, history, different groups of people, etc.

To say that I "believe", would probably require me to abandon logic, rationality, information, humanity, etc. and to adapt statements and stands that would never change or not change much. Therefore, things to me are always defined as "perceptions", "thoughts", "concepts", "actions", "consequences", "the total sum of this and that", etc., etc. that belong to either me or to others, in terms of time periods, faiths, cultures, sub-cultures, etc, occupations, etc.

And I judge or measure people and concepts by reliability, usefulness, logic(well the logic sets that I know of or can recall at that singular moment), how they treat themselves/others, their actions, their intentions, etc., etc. So yes, I abandoned the concepts of "belief", of "trust" and stuff like that. Why bother stating I "believe" when every 10 to 20 to ___ days, I'm going to come back with a set of altered statements and come off sounding as someone foolish?

The "me" before would be like this. Yes, everything below is likely about the former "me":

To "believe" would require me to analyze, observe and perceive said subject for a period of time, before I can actually arrive at a conclusion that would lead me to believe in a theory or a statement. However, my beliefs change all the time as I come across new information, as I see things from different angles and so on. Also, I understand that what I "believe" is not always true but until I can come across new information, new methods that will change my beliefs, I will just simply keep these beliefs but not tell the world. Upon the moment when I start to realize that my belief is in no way accurate, I will just either keep it and demote it to an observation, a perception, a piece of information, etc. or simply abandon it.

A very simple example of how I can arrive at beliefs: I used to eat fast food all the time. I did not believe too much in health, nutrition and so forth. But then, I fell tremendously ill. The doctors were either unable to or uninterested in helping me and their medicine was mostly useless. So, I started to learn more about nutrition, vitamins, medicine(modern, alternative, etc.), etc. and all these information helped shape some of my views and beliefs about the human body.

And another example: I used to believe the sky was simply "light blue" until I found out that the colors perceived by others through their eyes, are not always the same as mine. Same for scent, taste, touch, etc.

I hold beliefs out of xenophobia, cultural beliefs, fascism, superstition, "weird concepts" about aliens and so forth. Seriously, do not ask me how I came to believe, at one time, that flying saucers existed!

Yes, yours truly actually tampered with a gazillion faiths/branches of faiths(either by joining or reading about them and considering conversion): Christianity, Satanism, Buddhism, Islam, European pagan faiths, voodoo-based faiths, tarot-based faiths, etc., etc.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

i know this is an old post but what the hell.

simply, isn't belief just the extension of the way a child must innately trust it's caregiver in order to survive?

adult beliefs are when the person has not outgrown that trait, not broken through their superego, which comes in during those young formative years.
that is my summation. they have not outgrown the need to be parented, going from mum to god etc.

it is possible to be totally without belief when you deconstruct all that you are taught in those early years. things like hope still find their way into your psyche from time to time, but free from belief, rationality becomes the most dominant force in your life.

Re: Belief: What Is It, and From Where Does It Come?

Interesting thoughts trouble. It would seem that belief is tossed around and used in different connotations. For example, people often say, "you gotta believe in yourself to achieve anything." I would say that "envisioning" an outcome and "believing in something" are often misconstrued. For example, envisioning a desired outcome has been shown to be a successful technique in helping many athletes achieve goals. So has hard work and practice but it is often the ability to push the limits of what we "believed" were our limitations. So there is a certain kind of belief that I would say is valuable, however the "Constructed belief systems" we're taught as children can become hindrances as we grow older. One of my favorite quotes from the Principia Discordia is "I firmly believe that nothing should be firmly believed."