Just so you know, I spent half an hour writing out a thoughtful and detailed response, and then accidentally deleted it instead of submitting. I am now irritated at the internet, and, what with me being an inherently lazy person, you're going to have to suffice with the sparknotes version.

Firstly, yes, I do thing the difference in the way fear is experienced is a major part of the different cognitive functioning in a sociopath. This study - http://www.kcl.ac.uk/news/news_details.php?news_id=1137&year=2009 - I'm guessing you may be familiar with this one? Showed that "psychopaths" showed very little brain activity when shown pictures of scared faces than "healthy people". I suppose it is a part of the brain that doesn't function typically, but I think, once again, it is more complex than that.

And I wouldn't turn off this part of my brain, because to be honest, I think that would make me so lonely.

What you say about the "inner policeman" is so typical it is almost endearing. Yes, I do fear social rejection, and anyone who believes that they do not often steer towards "right" because they want to avoid guilt would be in denial - but, as you have probably observed, we humans are very good at lying to ourselves. I don't like wrong. I don't like being wronged, I don't like seeing people wronged, I don't like the idea of people suffering in general. I don't want to be good to people because of the negative implications (i.e. guilt) of acting otherwise, but because I want good things for other people. There is no policeman. There is just me.

As for being with a sociopath - there is so much to say on the matter, and nothing at all. I'm guessing you understand what might be positive about the relationship - the thrill, the charm, the ability to make me feel special/ I think the thing to say about it is that I have little doubt that he loves me as much as he is capable of loving anything, has never been anything except adoring (at least intentionally, this far) and genuinely cares for my emotional well-being. He puts me above everything in the world except himself, which is more than most people can say of their relationships.

There are negatives, of course. Partly, it's incredibly infuriating when he does things to hurt myself or others and doesn't even realise that his actions might upset people. He will do or say something, and I will be shocked or hurt or disgusted, and this will upset him, so I have to try to explain everything to him in terms that he can understand. And he is upset that he has upset me, because he doesn't like doing that, but still doesn't feel guilty about it. It's incredibly frustrating - sometimes I get a feeling that I'd be better off drawing sadfaces and smileyfaces to express how I'm feeling than use my actual emotions.

I suppose I would see things differently if I were older. I'm nowhere near an age where I should be considering finding a life-partner. I understand that the relationship will not end well, that due to his nature there is nothing permanent about it.

The truth is, that I love him for what he is and how he makes me feel. Which is something I never thought I would be able to say about a sociopath. And it's difficult, and challenging, but he makes me feel alive, which to me is really quite refreshing. I have accepted that this probably means there's something wrong with my own psychological make up. I'm not sure. It's tough and amazing. I'm having fun.

Anyway, glad I can offer some insights. All of this just fascinates me, really. Out of interest, how do you handle romantic relationships with empaths? I shared, it's only fair that you do.

Hey Hannah, nice to have read your input, you're smart. I too await Daniel's reply to your question.

This has happened to me a few times here and it is extremely annoying!



Yes, I’ve heard of this study. Would/do you look at pictures of people with frightened expressions and feel… something?



That made me laugh. Let me guess, your guy has said similar things about the conscience.



Oh yes. I’d even go as far as to say that self deception is the sine qua non of the human experience.



Fair enough. You sound like a smart young lady. Tell me you don’t actually believe there is such a thing as right and wrong.



You made another funny. I’m actually pretty good at picking up emotional cues myself – facial expressions, body language, tone of voice, etc. It’s just that I have no firsthand knowledge of what those emotions actually feel like in their depths. I know what they look like and sound like when other people report feeling them, just not what they actually feel like inside my own body.

It sounds like you have a kind of sweet deal with your guy. At least you know the score. Then again, how do you know the score? How do you know he’s a sociopath? Was he “diagnosed” or did you two put the pieces together on your own or what? Anyway, as I was saying, what you describe doesn’t sound awful. You’re aware of his limitations and it sounds as if you accept them. I think that is pretty huge. It’s one of those fundamentals that I suspect many so called normal relationships miss entirely. No one’s living happily ever after out there, unless they are in major denial. The fact that you are aware of yours and your guys limitations and are still finding a way to make it work speaks volumes about you, and I mean that in a good way. Unless you’re withholding the fact that he beats you or verbally assaults you or something. In which case… well that’s your business, isn’t it?



Fair? What’s fair got to do with it? Aint you heard? Life isn’t fair! LOL.

Seriously, I haven’t been in a romantic relationship in a while. I’m a divorcee. And I’m not sure just how “normal” my ex-wife was either, to tell you the truth. I will say that she appeared to innately feel a lot more than I did and I know the discrepancy bothered her. We had a lot of problems and my emotional detachment was one of them. When I do enter another relationship, I’ll either get lucky and find someone who will both understand and accept “what I am” (whatever that is) or depending on the circumstances, I’ll lie. I have family and friends in my life and not one of them, especially the ones I’m close to, know anything about any of this socio/psychopath stuff and that’s how I plan to keep it. This info is just for me, myself and I. And my anonymous online correspondents of course! If I can’t find an exceptionally self aware and accepting person like you, then I’ll just keep wearing my mask with whomever I’m with. I probably will anyway.

I'm not sure if a scared face would actually make me feel fear. It would certainly upset me, and I would find it unsettling, because of the recognition of the unpleasant experience of fear in another. If it were a child or worse, a baby, I would also experience an intense maternal reaction. Empathy doesn't necessarily follow the path of "you are scared so I am scared". In the case of fear, I suppose the reaction is more along the lines of "you are scared, and that is unpleasant, and so I am upset". I guess, a picture of a scared person is a pretty weak stimulus though. A picture of a person who is wounded or otherwise abused would really get me. Something to do with the capability of putting myself in their position, I guess.

I remember watching an early episode of House (back when it was good, and people actually died on occasion) which involved six ill babies. Over the course of the episode, one of them had to be resuscitated with a defibrilator, you saw one of them in an MRI machine, one of the babies died, and House autopsied it. All of these things really upset me, and I supposed my own face probably would have shown fear and discomfort. The sociopath wasn't around at the time, but I was describing how awful it was in an IM conversation. His response was something like "it's just television, love, nothing to get upset about." To which you can't really respond anything, because he just won't get it.


I think he sees guilt and remorse as some kind of disciplinary parents. "Behave badly and I shall whip you", and so positive action towards others is just something we do to avoid a beating. As I said, it's not quite that simple.



I haven't made my mind up yet. Right and wrong in objective terms don't really hold as concepts without some kind of external perfect authority to appeal to - by which I mean, it is difficult to hold that there is "right" and "wrong" without holding a belief in God, or some other sort of doctrine. Every text I have encountered that tries to quantify morality seems, at least to my own reasoning, to fail in some area or other.

So no, right and wrong do not exist in a same way as you can look at something and say it is "black" or "white. There are things that are good for humans and bad for humans. You can do well by yourself, others, and society in general, and contribute to the advancement of these things, or you can do badly by these things. I also believe that being human and everything it entails - mainly the ability to suffer, and the ability to think - grants us certain rights, the right to life and the right to freedom among them. The only thing I believe to be "wrong" is to infringe upon these rights. I place high value in truth and knowledge, because I believe that people have a right to make the best decisions possible. I believe there is suffering and there is happiness, I believe that people can either advance or devolve, and I believe that "right" and "wrong" are simplifications of complex amalgamations of all of these things.

Does that answer your question?


Oh, perhaps I should have phrased that better. I believe you when you say that. What I meant by that, was "this action = sadface". He can tell when I'm upset, but he can't tell why I would be upset by a certain action until after the fact.



That would involve more detail than I'm willing to give. I will say that he is undiagnosed, and that it was me who figured it out (and then told him from a rather safe distance, but he didn't get angry - he just thanked me). I'm not sure I believe I know the score because I want to believe I know the score, or because I actually do. But who does?



I don't see why I would withhold such information. I wouldn't want to inform people that a positive relationship with a sociopath is possible while I was myself an abuse victim. Part of the reason I'm engaged in this discussion is because I believe everyone should have as much information about everything as possible, so they can make the best decisions.

Well, when I say I don't want to be physically abused, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy a bit of good old fashioned masochism every now and then. Perhaps that's why it works.



Hah, good luck. I'm sure there are others out there. I know this sounds weird - but try to look for someone who seems unimpressed with your bull****, who is not quite so easily manipulated. I'm not sure why I think that is important. No point messing about with sheep if that's what you want.


Well, sorry about that. Really. I am vaguely entertained by the fact that I can find myself empathizing with sociopaths. People are scared of the unknown, and often with reason. You never know, though.

Really? Did you happen to take a gander of Dr. Robert’s account of our first interaction? Part of it involved a “disturbing” picture and my reaction to it. My comments about the picture were pretty much what would you would expect, with a sarcastic remark about it being a manipulative ploy to boot. Dr. Robert responded in turn with commentary which amounted to calling me a psychopath. (Not that dreaded label again! LOL.) I wonder if most people would respond to a picture like that with some kind of empathy or whatever. If you don’t mind, take a gander at it and tell me if you felt something like empathy as a result: ”War Victim”





You probably couldn’t handle watching 3 Guys, 1 Hammer then.





Yes it does. Good on you for thinking for yourself! My own take on morality can be summed up by the immortal Shakespeare: “there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”





Ok, I get that. I think. I have a good friend who routinely gets upset by people who brazenly break the rules. Although I wouldn’t call her a dogmatist by any means, she does believe that it’s very important to live by and respect the rules whenever possible. I understand intellectually what she means and why she’s upset, yet emotionally, there’s nothing there. (Every once in a blue moon I will however feel annoyed by her fidelity to “doing right”.) Again, I know why she’d be upset, but I don’t actually feel the why of it, meaning that I don’t get why what she’s upset about should be important enough to generate intensely negative emotions. Is that analogous to what you’re saying?





I do. :)





Naughty girl!





Good points. Yet, I wonder if it would be wiser to be with someone I can easily manipulate. I always feel that in relationships, one person invariably “takes the lead” on many things. There’s a power dynamic that takes place between the two. I don’t know if equality is possible or even desirable. If I’m right about the inevitable power dynamic, then I’d rather be in the driver’s seat. No surprise there, huh?





Thanks but there’s no need for that. I’ve been wearing masks for as long as I could remember. Also, I believe that most people wear masks of one sort or the other, the difference being they believe their masks are who they are. It’s that self delusion thing again. I’d rather be awake, aware and alert than one of the many sleeping masses, living their lives in a haze of denial and emotional befuddlement. I’m aware enough to know that I’m wearing a mask and why.

I had a look through the exchange. The first thing that struck me was your assumption that Dr Robert was trying to manipulate the man into feeling guilty - that sounds like something you would do, and shows a lack of insight in to the motivations of others. It just strikes me as a test of empathy. The father's admiration of Cheney was something that anyone with a truly over active sense of empathy would find it difficult to defend in the context of that picture. I think your reaction kind of validates it if anything. The father who wrote the letter claimed to be a "super empapath" - I see the picture as an argumentative tool to show a delusional narcissist that he is mistaken. The original letter was a piece of self-congratulatory babble, and I have to say, I'm with Dr Robert on this one (although I do agree that he was won over a little bit too easy by the narcissist's response)


No, and neither would I want to be able to. Ugh. The mere fact that it exists makes me immensely uncomfortable. I can handle campy horror-movie gore, but something like that would make me upset, distressed, and physically sick. I suppose that comes back to the fear aspect - I am scared that people would actually do these things, and I don't understand it. Also, I believe it deeply infringes on the rights of the victim that the video of what he went through is available for so many people to watch just for kicks.



Sort of. It isn't so much about breaking rules. It's about a lack of intuition, an inability to predict the effect one's actions might have on others. To use an example, I recently found a love letter to a girl the sociopath communicates with online (posted on his blog, which I also read. God I hate the internet), which wasn't explicitly addressed to anybody, so that the first time I read it I believed it was about me. He insists that it was purely for narcissistic purposes and to make the girl (who is sixteen, ffs, he is in his twenties) feel good about herself, rather than out of genuine affection, and I believe him. What bothers me about this is that it either crossed his mind it would hurt me if I realized who the letter was for and posted it anyway, or he just assumed I wouldn't notice. Either conclusion is upsetting. He took a very utilitarian stance on the matter, saying that by charming other women he gets his kicks and they get to feel good about themselves, and then gets confused when I get upset. It's the way he acts in the situations where there aren't "rules" that really gets me.


I find it hard to believe that anyone is quite so self aware.


No surprise, but you do seem to be taking a rather black and white stance on the concept of power. It isn't always a case of "either I have the power, or she will take it from me".


To be honest, I agree with your description as a lot of people as the "sleeping masses". The lack of insight people have into themselves and what makes them happy makes me kind of sad. However, once again, it isn't quite so black and white. I suppose if machiavellian power play is what is most important to you, then the mask will be a useful tool. I'm not concerned with such things, though. As I've said before, it sounds terribly lonely. A bit like a game of hide and seek where you never get found - sure, you win, but everyone else has gone outside to play while you're savoring your victory in a laundry basket.

Good thread. Nice writing, Hannah:

"it sounds terribly lonely. A bit like a game of hide and seek where you never get found - sure, you win, but everyone else has gone outside to play while you're savoring your victory in a laundry basket."

Be well.

Website: www.dr-robert.com

Or perhaps it shows a sharper insight into the motivations of others. I don’t just look at the words but the intended effect of those words. I know you understand what I mean when you say this:



Precisely. And what is the point of using argumentative tools anyway? Among other things, argumentative tools serve as a verbal means of convincing and persuading, which for all practical purposes, is just another kind of manipulation. In this case, the good doctor was attempting to manipulate how this father saw himself and that was my original point. Defending or not defending Cheney was irrelevant because there is ultimately no right or wrong, no good or evil. (Ok, ok, more properly, I should say that just as there is no good evidence for the existence of any kind of god, there is also none for objective morality, which means that it is safe to assume that such entities/principles do not exist.) In the absence of objective morality, what we have is one group or person who attempts by a variety of means and using a plethora of tools, including argumentative ones, to impose (this word is too strong but I couldn’t think of a weaker one right now) their value system on others. On an individual level this is often done through argumentation, through attempting to prove how “right” you are verses how “wrong” the other person is. This attempted imposition (again, too strong a word) is just another power play by other means. You can dress it up however you like with flowery words evocative of good and evil and so on, but it doesn’t matter what you call it. The only thing that really matters is the effect. If you are trying to manipulate someone through the clever use of words to believe differently and thus behave differently, you are attempting to exercise power over that person. You may mean well, but the end result remains what it is. Good intentions are not nearly as important as actions (or in this case, the words and pictures used) and their consequences.



Really? See, this is the part that’s just psychology for me, in that sometimes I do have a sense of unreality when people say things like this. I know it is because it’s alien to my own experience and I believe you and others when you makes these types of comments. Still, it feels weird sometimes. It’s like I think you have to be joking, like you can’t really mean it. Why on earth would it make you uncomfortable that the video is even out there? My thought is of course people like that are out there and of course they can do this to you, me or anyone else who is unlucky enough to fall into their hands! It’s reality, it’s how it is living among humans. I am not saying any of this to get you to defend yourself. Feel what you feel, think what you think. I’m just trying to convey how odd statements like the one I quoted sound to me when I stop to think about them.



Funny anecdote. I think I’d get the reasons you’d be upset. In fact, I know I would. I just wouldn’t care. That isn’t me being mean or nasty either. That’s how I would honestly feel on the inside. That’s probably something to keep in mind. It isn’t personal, this non-caring. It just is. It sounds like as far as he was concerned, it was a win-win for everyone. I understand his line of thinking all too well.



I’m no Buddha, but I am indeed a very self aware person. I have literally spent years examining my own thought processes, questioning my beliefs, and seeking understanding. Obviously, I’m still learning and I understand that this process will never end as long as I am alive. But that’s alright with me. After all, the unexamined life isn’t worth living, is it?



Especially considering the fact that my “power”, so to speak, can never be taken from me, only given. And I also acknowledge the possibility that there are people out there who may have great internal awareness on the one hand, combined with an evolved sense of selflessness. Theoretically at least. They are few and far between, however. They’d have to be a rare breed. Outside of that small group of virtual saints, most normal people are far more narcissistic than they give themselves credit for, and some will attempt to get what they want as often as possible. That seems to be how it is.



The laundry basket thing was so nonsequitur-like that I literally did laugh out loud. Also, your comment presupposes that those who to use your words, “go outside to play” are somehow gaining something. There is nothing to gain or lose in the final analysis. As I just said, what passes for normality (relationships, politics, religion and so on) is a laughable joke. The universe isn’t absurd, we are. So it makes no difference if I say inside with my trusty laundry basket (that still makes me smile) or go outside and “play” because in the end, it’s all one great big farce. The only real difference between us is the level of denial which makes society as we know it possible.

i just wanted to add my thoughts about fear.
fear is a thing you need when you get out of your comfort zone. but its an emotion, that you can transform into some kind of having high energy. fear is a thing that developed and protected us when we were cavern humans, we wanted to go for some food for our family, but there was a big lion there outside, and the fear was the thing that helped us to survive and not being eaten by the lion. later we used that fear to get angry, smarter, stronger and kill the lion. also in some cultures you used to get murdered when you took a woman from some group. so the fear was the thing that prevented you to get murdered. that fear in someway got into our genetics and we live with it.

but now things are different, but the fear is still there. the purpose of the fear is not longer there in a lot of things (basically what im saying is that the fear helps you survive) nothing is going to happen if you talk to strange people (most of the time).

Website: buscamusik.com

Diego:

I did something today that could get me into a fair amount of trouble if I had been caught and I won’t be going into any details for obvious reasons. I wasn’t caught of course. But I noticed that my body was doing the slight increase in heart rate thing and I had to take deeper breaths. I also noticed the thoughts that appeared within my mind while these physiological changes were occurring. I asked myself if I was feeling afraid? I sat with it for a moment. The answer was no because there was a sense of pleasure as well. I decided that I was excited by the exercise of freedom I was experiencing while deliberately breaking the rules. It’s akin to duping delight. I can see how one can get “addicted” to the rush that comes with playing outside of the rules. I can also see how people might think of me as “fearless” if they did what I did today and all they ended up doing was taking a couple of deep breaths in response to mild excitement.

My reason for bringing this episode up was to emphasize the increase in heart rate and change in breathing I experienced, which I used to associate with fear. Now I think those symptoms are just generalized, all purpose arousal signs, which, if I understand the others who contributed to this thread correctly, is not fear as it is commonly experienced. Fear appears to be a far more complex experience than the basic fight/flight/freeze (FFF) response. It is this complexity that I (and perhaps you?) am missing. Then again, I also suspect that how those base physiological responses show up vary from person to person depending on his/her genetic makeup. If fear is more than the basic FFF response, then one could say that for all practical purposes, “we” are fearless. I said that before in a previous comment, but I don’t know if I believe that. After all, I still experience physical changes in the presence of a perceived threat. That’s good enough to call fear I think, even if the complex cognitive aspect is missing. So my tentative conclusion is that this is the real difference between those without much of a conscience and those who have normal consciences with regard this question. We are missing whole levels of rumination in relation to fear and quite frankly our FFF response dial is turned down in comparison to the norm. Not off. Just down.

Anyway Diego, I think your comments are for the most part on point, although I would merely add that the roots of fear must extend further back in our evolutionary history since many other animal species exhibit physiological signs (FFF response) that we associate with fear also. And I also think you are correct to point out that the original reasons for installing the FFF response in all of us are no longer operative in modern society. Fear is useful to be sure, otherwise none of us would have it.

god did created FEAR. what i DOES be interested is BE that you cans WIN fear with other EMOTION does you THINK that be? THEM does like LOVE or ANGRYNESS and then yours can even BEND steel sometimes if you DOES gets angry enough.

what YOUR opinions is?

Seriously Lega, comprehending what you are saying is difficult. So I am going to go ahead and translate what I think you are saying and respond to that. You are saying that god created fear (easy enough). Then you move to ask if fear can be managed and/or overcome with other emotions. And perhaps you are concluding with a question about the strength of other potentially overpowering emotions, like love or anger.

What is my opinion? Obviously I do not believe in any kind of god. Emotions have their origin, like everything else considered human, in our evolutionary history. Believing in a god and evolution is not necessarily a contradiction in terms, by the way. It often is in practice, however. Do I think fear can be overcome using other emotions? You know what? I don’t think so. I think a person can rapidly switch between emotions, like anger or excitement and fear, but I don’t know if the fear response can be completely turned off using other feelings. I’m talking about the basic FFF response and not anxiety or lighter versions of fear. And finally, are other emotions stronger than fear… Actually, I’d say no for the most part. My guess is that no emotion overcomes fear once it gets going because nothing truly overcomes our natural instinct towards self preservation. Fear is tied to our will to survive at almost all costs. And by self preservation, I am also referring to the genes. Genes are what survive from one generation to the next in the form of copies and to that end, parents and other relatives are programmed to at least be willing to sacrifice themselves to preserve those copies (children).

your DOESNT actualy believe in that EVOLUTION JUNK? you should READS this
http://contenderministries.org/mail/evolution06162003.php

AND also in MINE parts LOVE and ANGRYNESS can overcomes fear. for EXAMPLES when i DID watched one HOROR movie and where did BAD MENS killed people i did THINK scared but then i DID thinked they be ACTUALY just SAD peoples who done gotted HURTS. then i did NOT scared anymore.

and ONE TIME when did peoples WITH KNIFES tryed robbing PEOPLES i did SCARED first but then i DID thinked their is gona DO that SAME things to everyone and GETS very angry and kicked their ASSES and did gived them to POLICE.

Hmm. Funny how a non-Xtian links a Xtian site refuting evolution as a “junk science”. Yeah Lega, we’re done. Go bother someone else with your disingenuous inanity.

YOUR not can say DONE after does SAYING last coment. it be CHEATING.

and because you DOES get anoyed BY mine SAYING about god i DID readed (and did DISCUSED with friend) that maybe YOURS wants to deny GOD because you DONT wants to believe. but DEEP DOWN there still maybe SPARK that does wants to BE SAVED and also DOES wants me to let HELP me CURES you. also you did SAYED:
so that DOES proves it... if you DOSE feel BAD or UNCOMFORTABLE about mine questions then i DOES respects that and i ALSO does says i hope you DOES be cured. BUT if you does still wants HELPS then does replies and i DOES still helps you. you not NEEDS do it now because i CAN helps later too. just asks.

What a trip

He's going to "cure" you.

/ma "cure" ?

You're infected! Like a zombie.


What if we get possessed by the devil? Can that be cured? Or wait... perhaps we are?

your DOSENT be INFECTED or does be DEVIL possesed. YOUR does spirit has HURTED and that MUST does HEALED. sory i DOESNT know how else to EXPLAINS it but you MUSTS believes me. ACTUALY does one CAN says your DOES be posesed by the DEVIL but it not actualy POSESSED by devil only DOES in SYMBOL.

if YOURS dosent interested in CHURCH or OTHER RELIGION THING then maybe DOES talks to YOURS family about it? i DOESNT knows if that DOES helps as well as THEM talking to GOD does but maybe does GIVES it try?