"4.2 is a made up division so that more athletes and gyms can feel like winners."

Wow, really? That's as stupid as saying that level 4 is a division that is made up for the losers who aren't good enough to make a level 5 Worlds team... Give a break!

You're right -- any given athlete could take YEARS to build up level 4 tumbling skills, but can learn to stunt well much sooner, with the right coaching. My gym is brand new, from a small town that NEVER had a legitimate gymnastics program until THIS year. We have TWO former gymnasts in the program, and the rest were taught from scratch. 4.2 is a perfect fit for my team, not because we have the strong desire to "feel like winners", but because we have worked very hard to teach our kids good technique when it comes to stunting, and they are absolutely ready to stunt beyond level 2, but haven't had the time to build up a full team of athletes with level 3 or 4 tumbling.

Honestly, under normal circumstances, I would never reply to a post like this. However, you have done SO much complaining about your results (or lack thereof) on this message board, and you have had absolutely NO regard for other people's feelings when doing so, and you have finally struck a nerve with me. Your posts have made it clear that you have trouble putting yourself in other people's shoes, so I just wanted to let you know that there are plenty of reasons why the 4.2 division is legitimate, and that there are many ways in which it HELPS to grow the sport for gyms that aren't as large as your own.

If I was as caught up in championship titles as you are, I would be one MISERABLE person. Do yourself a favor and GET OVER IT. We're all starting off with a brand new season, and the sky is the limit. I truly wish you the BEST of luck this season, as I hope that helps you find some happiness. Should you win, you can be sure that I will not be going around posting wherever I can about how UNFAIR and WRONG it was that your team got a chance to taste success.

I stand by the comment. Tell me you don't agree with me if they form 5.3, 3.1, etc. We've had a team in 4.2 the past couple of seasons. I like the division and think it's appropriate for certain athletes. That doesn't change the fact that there are too many divisions and this is just another division added so that there are more winners. Regardless of whether I like the division or not, my point was it's not comparable to Level 4. If, God forbid they ever make a 5.3 division I would hope it wouldn't have a chance to win Level 5 Grand Champions either. When you take the tumbling aspect out of the routine/score sheets you have completely different scores and routines.

And again, I stand by post about the results of Level 4. Those opinions were shared by other coaches in the division as well as by a CE official. Not that you're going to care, but I really don't care much about the win. What I do care about, is fair, consistent judging. That's been missing at CE Nationals for the past two seasons.

Thank you for your concern regarding my well being but I'm perfectly alright. I love my teams and I love my gym. My athletes know that and they also know I'd do anything for them.

I will stand by Larry in agreeing that there are way too many division. Although unto itself, 4.2 is fine as would 3.2 or 6.2 but when you look at the overall picture, all the industry has done is thin out the division sizes to 'make more kids feel like winners'. Larry is just writing and putting his name to something that a LOT of coaches and parents have been saying for several years now.
Where the over divisioning of things is most evident, is at small competitions (in both Canada and the US) when there are rarely a 'division' with more than 2 teams in it. Back in the day when there was All Girl and Coed or as it was known: Varsity and Coed, yes, teams might place 13th at a competition but at least they felt like they were in a competition. But today's namby pamby stroking of the egos of the underskilled teams and gyms that feel they need to validate themselves with trophies and banners (al of which say NATIONAL CHAMPION on them), has pushed us to accept the creation a division for every team. Personally, I hate the idea of 6.2 or Open 4. FOr gosh sakes, do we really need to coddle the 23 year olds that join these teams in the twilight of their careers so much so, that we remove tumbling or inversions? Why not take out jumping or even cradling in case the old folks might strain a back muscle. Yup: Level 6.1, that's what we'll call it.
My point? Larry is honest and speaks what many of us are afraid to. And there are many of us out here that quietly say right on.

Well written and stated. I agree with both you and Larry. I competed back in the day when it was co-ed and Varsity. 30+ teams in the Varsity Division at Ontario's, you actually had to compete, and be mindful of things, like smiles, motions, no bobbles, etc. It was a "real" competition in my mind.

Well, I'm going to date myself again and state that I remember a time in which you could compete in Ontario against 60+ teams. That being said, the "actual" competition took place between two or three teams for top place - CCH, Notre Dame, Woodlands, Bishop Mac...and honestly, that is it.

We continually lament about the "lack of competition" but in reality its always been thus in the truest sense of the word. Having the 59th place team in 1989 attempt to do the things that CCH was doing would have been unsafe, and bad for the sport (and it was). The level playing field rules that we have today that restrict teams to stay within the level of their ability is prudent and smart. Having ability-based division works in every other sport in our country so why won't it work at cheer?

In my estimation it does, CE had over 350 teams...my gym (PCT) took 13 teams to this competition and EVERY SINGLE one of our divisions had competition - some deep (10-15 teams) some not deep (2-4 teams). It is not the USASF divisions that are causing the lack of deep divisions - its the proliferation of competitions. Back in the day, we had 3 maybe 4 events in a year. We started competing at Voaden in December and ended in Ontarios in March. Easy, condensed season and every cheer team in the province participated. Now teams travel, we have 10 events to choose from in Ontario (don't get me wrong, I like that) and with that cannot expect to have competitions with divisions of even 10 teams. Its not the reality, and holding fast to the "good old days" is just silly.

As for 4.2, I'm all for it. I think its the perfect division for most of Canada. It allows senior aged girls to do what they are most good at (eg. stunt), without going beyond that illusive backhandspring. Seriously, how many 16 year olds learn to go beyond this skill? Its a realistic division based upon what the country has to offer. Should it be up for Grand Champs vs. Level 4? I don't think so. Should it exist? Absolutely!