Didn't mean to ignore you, Ramblinman. Just wanted to reply first to Jerry Sledge. His link to the book by D.H. Jonathan was so interesting. I've written more on that and may post later but don't want to forget you.

You wrote this:

Art departments seem to vary widely in how much interaction they allow between models and artists. I don't know much about this but I do know a few nudists who have been nude models. It's a good-paying job for students, and if a student is already enjoying social nudity, why not apply?

I may post things I've written responding to Nudony's comments on “crossover” with nude models not merely being “objects” for the artists but interacting with the artists. I'm told there's a movement in some art circles, which are often “progressive,” to empower the models, who for many centuries in the history of art were usually women of low social status being paid to sit nude before male artists who were employed by some of the richest men in Europe since only the wealthy had enough money to patronize artists. That relationship could easily be abusive and definitely had an imbalance of power.

Feminists in the art world understandably reject that and want it to change. I'm told that allowing students in the same college or university to model nude, and especially allowing fellow art students to model nude, changed the older model of “distance” between the artists and models more than any feminist theory about how models should be treated.

It's not hard to see how that works.

If an art student decides she'd rather earn some of the best pay on campus for students by being a nude model rather than washing dishes in the cafeteria, and takes off her clothes as a figure model in an art class where her nude body is closely looked at and drawn or painted or photographed by male and female students who she knows, and who she likes, and who respect her own artistic talents, the relationship between model and artist changes. When the model walks behind the easel or looks at the photographs, she's not giving an untrained opinion. She is herself a professionally trained artist and her opinions on things like shading and shapes of body parts and how to portray curves and skin tones are spoken to the artists as one equal talking to another.

But we can't overlook that nudity makes a difference. As nudists, we know when male and female friends go to a nude beach or resort together, their relationship changes, usually for the better.

Are we surprised that female models who are students in the same college or university get asked out on dates by male artists? Sometimes the reverse happens too. When nude models are also art students, they share a lot in common already with the artists who are closely examining their nude bodies.

I know at least two art students who were nude models and not only dated but married a fellow student. Got to know them at the nude beach near our campus. Is that normal? Or a breach of professionalism?

I don't know enough about nude modeling to know. As Ramblinman pointed out with the Wyeth relationship with a model when both he and the model were married to other people, there are challenges. From the (admittedly very limited) number of people I met on the nude beach near our campus who had modeled nude, two art students who start dating seems okay to me. Same for an art student who starts dating a model who is majoring in something else at the same school.

That's completely different from an older male artist with an established reputation in the art world who asks a young female college student out on a date after she modeled for him nude. Rules against relationships between models and artists were created to prevent that sort of abuse, not two students who are equals, who enjoy each other's company, who may live in the same dorm, and who might have met even if one of them hadn't modeled in an art class where the other was a student.

I started to respond earlier to Nudony about how he's absolutely right that many men don't give much thought to how the act of getting undressed will affect the women they care about. As I said, I don't think it's that men are clueless or mean or uncaring (though some are), but rather that the experience of undressing is much more emotional for most women than for most men. Taking off our clothes when someone else is watching, no matter who it is, makes most women feel very vulnerable until we become used to nudity.

What was on my mind at the time was the experience of Ashley, who I wrote about on Feb. 10 and had finally agreed, after getting engaged, to the requests of her fiance Curtis to try social nudity.

What I posted about instead was how I had friends in college who were art students and decided they liked the money from being face models and then got talked into full body nude figure models. That turned into talking about nude modeling, which I don't know much about.

I had some more things I wanted to say about nudity unrelated to nude modeling, especially about the act of undressing, which was really hard for Ashley to do at the pool with a group of people.

For younger women with little or no sexual experience, having men see us nude, and even more having men watch us get nude, is tremendously scary. That's true even if it's a male doctor we trust or a man we deeply love. I know some men who get embarrassed when a female nurse or doctor examines them, but it just isn't the same. As for married women, the act of undressing has very definite sexual connotations, so even though we may not mind a man watching us take off our bra and panties, or we may even enjoy it, there are all kinds of mixed feelings, including feelings of false guilt and modesty, when we undress with someone, especially if it's someone who has never seen us naked before.

I've seen this with wives, girlfriends, sisters, cousins, and even with daughters visiting nude beaches and resorts, though most of the time when a family is visiting a socially nude place for their first time, they've done a LOT of talking beforehand and that includes input from the wife and from everyone else in the family. Also, most families do at least one "trial run" with nude swimming in their home pool, or spending time nude in their home, before trying a socially nude place. Though I've seen it happen, the resort or beach is NOT the right place for a brother and sister or male and female cousins to see each other undress for the first time, even if they're adults in college.

I'd add one more thing about the nude beach. Many women who try a nude beach do it to even out their tan lines. Even on textile beaches, it's not unheard of for women to untie their bikinis, at least their tops, and lay on their stomach for an even tan on their backs. A tan line looks terrible with a backless dress, and even with less revealing light summer clothing styles, many styles of bikini shoulder straps leave tan lines that show up.

I've seen quite a few first-time couples where the man and woman will come to the beach wearing only their swimsuits but putting their sunburn coverups and everything else in their beach bag to avoid the "putting on a show" feeling when they reach their spot. They take their beach blanket out of their beach bag, the woman lays on her stomach, the man unties her bikini and puts suntan lotion on her back, and then he puts on his own lotion, lays down on his stomach, and pulls off his shorts.

It's not unusual for a couple like that, after maybe ten minutes to half an hour getting used to seeing lots of other people nude and enjoying some of the feeling of being nude, to roll onto their sides so they can see each other but most other people can't. At some point when they need to turn over to avoid sunburn, they may decide, "Oh, why the heck not," and either sit up or roll over on their backs, no longer "hiding their private parts."