Please just keep one thing in mind. I am no psychologist/psychiatrist and these words I am saying to you are my true beliefs but in no way professional. I am few exams away from my law degree (go figure :P) and I am a bit older then you, and have same kind of remorse like you, but everything I am saying to you are conclusions you could have easily came up by yourself. Professional are the words from Dr. Saltzman and you also found his articles comforting I believe, as all of us, who as humans have done some things we regret. But let's go a bit detailed on that. Why do we regret it??? Do you regret having a close bound with your sister that was in a way even "sexual"? Do you regret enjoying? I think not. I think this guilt you put on yourself, that I also do, is our own hypocrisy. Now let me explain that. You and me both want to be good people. We want to be good women, good mothers, good sisters, good daughters. And a major part of society that fears sex and labels most things sexual as demonic and filthy has gotten under our skin. We daily see news about pedophiles and rapists and sex offenders and it stays within our minds what these people have done, and then we remember what we ourselves experienced and equal ourselves with those people. If you hadn't saw such news, if you haven't google-d online, and so on, would you ever think that what you did was wrong, filthy or abusive??? Think about it..
I am also from Europe, Croatia to be specific. :) And I understand your family situation. My father was an abusive alcoholic that died when i was 19. I experienced few years of horrible war and death in my country. I also experienced horrible stuff as a child, from my father, but it's all past and it doesn't even hurt anymore. It's all dead and gone. My mother divorced him when I was 16 and at that time and even before that time we were living in very hard conditions. But money never mattered to me, as long as me and my family had peace. I wish your family the very bast and hope that your situation will improve a bit, but trust me, so many people these days are struggling, it's nothing to be ashamed off.
I'm glad you spoke with your sister, and if she is fine with this, I suggest you just drop the matter. You say, she seemed uncomfortable. Well, that's okay. Sexuality matters usually are. You are both still pretty young and I doubt you had some real sexual experiences. It would be different if you talked about it when you were both over 30 and so, and knew life and sexuality a lot better. So, I suggest you leave that subject, and don't talk to her about it unless she herself shows desire, cause this way you can traumatize her in a way. She can interpret your attempts to continuously talk about it, like something bad and horrible happened. And it didn't. :) You even have less things to worry about. You are both close in age and have both participated in that action so, unlike me, you really don't have a reason to put the "abuser" label on yourself. So why do you then? Because you had orgasms? Are you a catholic? I am a catholic, like the rest of my family. But I don't feel like one. I think I broke almost every rule in the book. :D I think the walls of the church would broke if I stepped inside. :P Joke to the side.. Come on girl.. Give yourself a break :D
For God's sake. My boyfriend played with his sailing buddy when he was 11. It ended up with him putting his penis up his ass for a second. xD He doesn't think he's gay because of that. Also with his younger female cousin when he was 9. I already told you about what his sister did to him. My mother did it with her sister. My mother told me about my brother playing with the neighbourhood kids in a similar way. A journalist my mother knows fucked goats during his adolescence. My friend bought squids in the store and would put it upon his penis to give himself pleasure. Tell me girl.. Do you need more..
And then you read American bullshit "Uhm, simulating sexual intercourse or getting into sexual play with other children that are not your age precisely is abuse" Yeah right.. Then we are all abusers. I am. My mother is. My aunt is. My brother is. My boyfriend is. My boyfriend's sister is. And so on.. and so on..
I apologize to anyone who truly believes he was abused by other children. But each case is unique and just because he feels that way it doesn't mean I will accept that I am a abuser. Cause my brother doesn't feel like a victim at all. I look at this boy, and he is taller then me for a whole head. And each time I mention word abuse he makes fun of me so badly and then when I stay serious he becomes serious and just tells me "don't be stupid". :D If someone has the urge to write "Because my sister humped me I am now suffering and I shall not be the President or an Olympic champ and I cannot function at all" that's their problem really. I know how my family works. And besides, people tend to find answers for their personal failures and problems in the past. I am not an American and will not live by their rules or judge myself by their rules. We do not put children to jail, or charge kids for rubbing up against each other or sending dirty pictures and then put them on the sex offender registry for life. Shame on them. Shame on their stupidity.
Finally. As your mom is concerned. I can not make that choice for you. It seems you truly are passing through a difficult time and this would be one burden more on her, but I don't know.. I don't know what kind of a person your mom is. But I know she is your mother. And it doesn't matter that she agrees with you on everything but just that she understands. And that she accepts you and loves you. And I do not understand mothers that do not do that. I can not even call them mothers but monsters instead. Yo will have to go with your own instinct. Either wait a while, or talk to her right away, or put it all behind you without talking, but just don't let this become EVERYTHING YOUR LIFE IS SPINNING AROUND. And I see it has started, you are not sleeping, not being able to think about anything else and so on. Something is a big deal just because you make a bid deal out of it. But there is so much more things that are worst in this life, so much more suffering, that things like this really shouldn't be anybody's downfall. YOU NEED TO GROW TERMS WITH YOUR OWN HUMANITY, YOU NEED TO BE SMART. I picked up on a great one somewhere in Dr. Saltzman's articles.
"BELIEVE NOTHING JUST BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE BELIEVES IT. BELIEVE ONLY WHAT YOU YOURSELF TEST AND JUDGE TO BE TRUE"
p.s. Psycho-sexual development is something that a professional needs to explain to you. But I kind of have a feeling that not every one of them has the same interpretations of it and much like everything else in life, it depends on one's point of view.
Perhaps you can ask the Doctor himself, he visits the forum from time to time.
Hello and welcome, Izzy--
When I started this forum last year, I knew that there were many wise and kind people with real life experience who would be able to offer useful advice to others who were confused, or suffering some kind of emotional pain, and that is exactly what has happened on this thread. BT read your question, understood perfectly what you are going through, and has given you some excellent advice which, in my view, you should hear, understand, and use.
Psycho-sexual development refers to the process of changing from an infant to an adult who is capable of relationship and sexual reproduction by mating with another human being. In many ways, that process is automatic, and does not need to be managed. For example, soon after a baby is born, it discovers its own genitals and begins to play with them, which is called "masturbation." This is an entirely normal and expected part of growing up (psycho-sexual development), which is needed so that the growing child can feel its own body and feel how it works. Learning to achieve orgasm by means of masturbation lays the groundwork for being able to have orgasms through sexual intercourse later in life, and so masturbation is required by the human being in order to become a fully capable adult. Unfortunately, religious authorities and others have demonized masturbation, labeling it a sin and the child who engages in it a sinner. This is completely erroneous. There is nothing at all sinful or wrong about masturbation. In fact, it is good for you!
The same is true of other kinds of sexual experimentation in which children engage with other children or sometimes animals. It is not a sin or wrong. On the contrary, this is a normal part of psycho-sexual development. Such experiences teach the child about her own body, and how sexuality feels. This prepares the child for later functioning as an adult. Now such activities, as I have written elsewhere, have one meaning when a child does them, and quite another when an adult does. For the child, sexual play with another child or even with an animal is experimentation. For an adult, it is not experimentation, but the sign of an unhealthy relationship to sexuality, for we expect adults to have had sufficient psycho-sexual development to be able to engage is sex with other consenting adults, not with children or animals. In other words, one sign of an adult is already having passed through the stage of childhood sexual experimentation--not to keep repeating it, which would be childish. I hope you see this difference.
I will repeat myself, Izzy. You have done nothing wrong. Everything you did with your sister was a normal part of childhood sexual experimentation aimed a furthering your psycho-sexual development. YOU HAVE DONE NOTHING WRONG.
I strongly advise you to simply accept this opinion, which is the opinion of a trained and experienced psychotherapist, and now just forget the whole thing. I advise you not to discuss it with your mother, which really will not help you, and which might cause her pain and confusion. It is up to you now. Everything you did with your sister was a normal and expected part of childhood development, not a sin or a crime. Please take my word for it and move on. When you are older and have had lovers of your own, I am sure you will understand.
Thank you so much for wasting your time answering to my questions. Now I understand better and I feel better.
I already had made the decision of not telling my mom about it. I’m sure that will not help in any way, I would probably make me more stressful, and so as her.
I have repeated to myself that I am a good person, and that I shouldn’t be ashamed of what happen because you said is a normal and expected part of childhood sexual experimentation, that I haven’t done anything wrong. But… I will just forget it like right way? No right? It will take time, because even though it’s a normal thing and I haven’t done nothing wrong, it is a new subject for me and I haven’t been trough that.
Also is it normal for me to be wondering about others people childhood, like my friends, or the people that I see in TV or my family?
Thanks for your time
My father has sometimes problems with alcohol, nothing too abusive. There was a period that he would come home I would be afraid that he would beat me up or something like that. But after he left home, my mom kind of kick him out, that was the time that kind of stop, I think it was before, but between that time where he come home drunk, and he and my mom fought, that was the time that happened that. But It’s all past, it’s all past, and it’s all good. It was a normal experience, that I shouldn’t be ashamed of, or feel guilty in any way, because my sister forgave me.
But you know, don’t you ever wonder how others life are? Like if they had the same experience that you had? I mean I don’t know anyone else that had been trough the same experience than me. But I shouldn’t be wondering about that right? It’s bad for me. I just need to realize that was normal experience in childhood, and that I am good, my sister is good, and that I am a good person, I am a good person, I am a good freaking person.
Also when you realize that it was a normal experience and it wasn’t wrong at all because like I said it was normal, like you are not all recovered in some way, you still think about it? So it’s normal, that I still think about it, like sometimes I forget about it, but sometimes it crosses my mind… It will be like this forever? It will be fine right? I just got to get over it, and see it as something normal …
Just wanted to say that after coming across this site I feel much better. I did things when I was younger that I'm really not proud of. I completely blocked it out till a couple of years ago and then forgot about it again till a couple of days ago. And since then I've been thinking about talking to someone, like a helpline, but was paranoid that they would be disgusted by me and may even call the police.
I try to be a good person and believe in karma, and since remembering what I've done I feel like something really bad is going happen to me. I want forgiveness. I want peace of mind.
Maybe when I feel braver I'll elaborate on my situation.
Stop putting this overwhelming guilt on yourself. Your sister equally participated in the act as you. Did she push you away, started screaming or turned on you. There wasn't need for it, cause it was nothing wrong. As much as there is no need for this church-kind-of stuff now. YOU NEED TO FORGIVE YOURSELF. And not for sexually experimenting with your sister, but just for being human. I see you have a difficult time accepting that. Stop speaking like you are an abuser, and even opening a possibility to people to call you one. Cause you are not. For a thousand time. You are not. You are not. Stop making an elephant from a common flea.
It's not bad for you to wonder. But it's bad for you to start being obsessed with the subject. Cause you can hear things that will help you and those that will only make you feel worse. Leave the subject and start living your life as a 16 year old girl, mostly carefree and stuff. Freeze this picture of a dirty act you have in your mind and just make it smaller and smaller and then finally blow it away.
You will think about it forever and not another day. It's just a matter of your own decision. Of your own brain to rationale and get a hang out of life, it's good and it's bad days. And this is just a beginning. There is so much more ahead of you. GIVE YOURSELF TIME AND SPACE TO BREATH. Outside of this story you came to tell us, outside of any story you know. Empty your brain and start over.
If you keep obsessing about the subject it may turn out you are even auto-destructive and concentrated on judgment of others. Do you want to be a bad guy? Do you want to keep reading and looking for someone who will tell you are a molester and everything bad? I hope not.. So don't.. :o)
There is no such story that has not already been written. Take the time you need..
You can't imagine how thankfull I am to you and to Dr. robert. I really don't know what I would have done without your help, I probably would gone crazy or get into a depression.
You made me see, that I am not an abuser, that I have done nothing wrong, that was a normal experience of the chilhood. I understand know children are curious, and it's okay to explore that curiousity because we are kids and we are still learnig how to live in this crazy life we have.
But I have to say that I'm not totally heel, because heeling takes time.
I sometimes when I am with my friends, I start wondering what would happen if they find out, if they would still be my friends. I know that I shouldn't have such thoughts, because they are bad for me, so I just push them away.
Also I don't know why but I start feeling my hands shaking ( it's not a really bad shaking, it's an almost invisible shaking) and my heart racing, sometimes without feeling my chest. Why is it happening? How do I make it stop? I that another form of anxiety?
Is just that sometimes I think about it- what happen(the experience)- but then when I am focus on others things I stop thinking about it, but I still know that happen because I can feel my hand shaking and my heart racing.
I don't know if it made any sence to you but it doesn't make a lot sence to me either.
Thanks for wasting your time.
You're not wasting my time. By helping you I am actually trying to help myself.
Yes. It is anxiety. I have panic attacks almost on a daily basis. I lose all air in my chest and start crying and crying. I shiver and cover myself with a blanket and moan. And then I pick myself up and find strength to finish my day. DON'T DO THAT TO YOURSELF, don't be me :(
I am considering taking another trip to the psychologist and I will if this thing progresses. I think about what if he felt that minute that i rubbed against him in his sleep. What if he was paralyzed and frightened and wanted the touching to stop. He assures me that he didn't. I can't even talk to my mother about it anymore cause she gets mad and tells me; how can you demonize a child's play to such extent. My brother held me yesterday while I cried and kept saying, everything is going to be ok. I hate doing this to him.
Yeah I know what you feel. Before searching for dr. robert help I had a really bad time. I start feeling that I shoudn't be loved and I startt feeling like you, panic atacks. I start crying and crying, and I couldn't even breathe. But after you and Dr. robert help me I start feeling much better. I dind't had any more panic attacks, but sometimes I still cry, because it's so overwhelming sometimes I can't belive that it really happen. Sometimes I just wish I had a normal childhood. I see all my girlfriends, and I think: Their biggest problem must be if I they have a pimple or if they can't find a boyfriend. I mean I wish I could worry about that, I wish I could just drop the subject and live my life as a 16 ear old teenager but, I constantly feel my hands shaking like all the time. I can't really make it stop. I wish I could, do you know how to? I just have to be foucus and stay positive. I mean I am absolutly sure that if my hands didn't shake I could just drop it.
I'm not sure why you feel that way. Cause.. Yes you had sexual play with your sister. But no, you did not take it overboard. You don't have a large age gap between you like me and my brother do. And you both participated in the action. I know everybody feel their pain is the strongest and biggest but if you feel bad, how am I suppose to feel?
I will now write to you what a woman wrote to me on a psychology forum page from my own country.
"For God sakes. A child is giving herself pleasure like a dog who rubes on a visitor's leg. There is nothing wrong about it, especially if the object is saying so. If you had each your own room, individual babysitters, studied latin in free time, you wouldn't have had the chance to explore in such ways and would both probably be into heavy S&M nowdays. lol.. This way, you are children of the 21.st. Finish school, find a job, get married. STOP FINDING ALIBIS WHERE THERE ARE NONE."
And Izzy.. read this book, if you get a chance..
"Simona Vinci - What we don't know about children"
Well I understan everything that you are saying to me and I apreciate so much for you to reply me and help me. You are the only person that I can talk to about it. I couldn't talk to my mom, because I don't want her to feel ashamed or scared. I know that if she react like that, she wouldn't have the right to be my mom because what I did was nothing wrong, but I read somewher when I was searching about that book you told me "what we don't know about children" and I saw like a comment on the page and it said something like "this is all parents nightmare..." and I didn't read more, but...
Also I couldn't tell my friends of course. I know that they wouldn't understand and they would probably think I am an abuser or whatever, and I think that's is enough what I have to go trough school, because I have a really low self-estime and other things going on. But when I get older? Should I tell my friends and boyfriend? I mean I hope, I sinceraly hope, that when I am older or in a few months I can be ok with all this and not be worried about this sort of things and just live my life. But should I tell them? Or is no need to do that, because it was just a phase that I went trough? I don't really know, I never had a boyfriend so I don't know how people get to know each other. I mean I know but this is a part of who I am? Or is just a thing that children go through to descover more about sexuality? I don't know and I think you could really help me.
Also I saw your post in that guy, that has also been trough sexual play with other children, and I wonder about what you said, that you start masturbation late, and what is the age that girls normaly start to masturbate? Because I just start masturbation last year and I guess if I had start earlier my sister and I woudn't be involved in a sexual play. I don't know.
Alsoabout that book? I can't really buy it, but have you read it? Because if you did I would like for you to tell me what's the storie and what should I get from the book.
Thank you, I am so sorry if by reading my posts tI make you feel worse, or anything, is just that you are like the only one I can talk to.
Living in the past... When will any of you ever learn to live in the now? I guess you can't. Your brains lack the capacity to comprehend the shifting of time.
So you loop problems in your head until final meltdown. How.. pathetic.
Sometimes we wish to shift back in time and correct the errors of our past. It is sad that none of you take into account that who you are is not who you were.
Surely you no longer exhibit such behaviors.. as you have grown. So why would you ever look back at a lesser version of who you once were and punish yourself... now.. for something you didn't do. Who you are wouldn't commit such acts so why look back on a lesser version of yourself and feel such guilt?
I do not blame myself for my past mistakes. I only seek to grow from them and make weakness into strength.
When will you learn that who you were is not who you are and yet who you were.. shapes who you are. Everything you do is to auto correct behaviors of your childhood. To.. complete you as a person that lives in the now.
The inner child is still part of you and yet you seek to destroy your own selves in such a manner... to die inside. You are sad creatures who don't even understand their own design. Is this what Jesus would do? I think not.
True. Every word. But you know why? Cause nobody wants to accept that they were (not are) an abuser. Like you said, the ego feels ashamed. And you dread at the thought that the person you feel you abused is gonna confirm their feelings of the abuse one day. You feel responsible. Although it's not you. And it can not possibly be you. Because like you said. That person is not here anymore. Just the consequences of their actions are. But you bear the burden of them.
What wolfie is on about is actually something that really, really annoys me about people in general.
Almost everyone is living either in the past or in a distant future, preparing for something, an idle fantasy. What the hell is so wrong with the present? How can you ever get where you want to go if you don't live in the present? I find such a life sad and pathetic, to always look forward to something by being miserable in the present or beating yourself up over something that happened instead of learning from the experience. You live it again and again and again. It's fine to analyze an experience, to figure out what went wrong, where and why as to not make the same mistakes but to regret it? Should have, could have and would have is meaningless past understanding.
Every experience, positive or negative, makes you a stronger person IF you understand the implications of the experience. This childhood sexual play thing seems popular these days and it seems silly to me. How else WOULD you get to know yourself and your sexuality if you don't experiment? Do some think that we are somehow born with the knowledge to have sex? I mean, yes, pretty much everyone has the sexual drive but the releasing part is what seems to be a taboo, especially in the US, for some odd reason. Here is a shocking revelation; people fuck. Not only themselves but eachother too! Sticking your dick into a hole repeatedly is the basic idea, sure but the only way we learn what gets us off the best is by trying out! You are not ashamed about trying different foods are you? So what if it was your sibling, i bet you anything that unless he/she was forced and screaming for mommy, they enjoyd the experience aswell.
Hi Hexi. Ive never posted on her before but have spent a great deal of time browsing through the forums and archives. Fuk i wish more people were like you. What you have said is how i feel. People seem to think (even i did admitedly) that anything sexual is bad. is evil. ...... i meen what a load of complete bull shit that is. the world and the people in it are fukd and i think lets just leave it at that.