LMAO...

I'm sorry but.. you didn't do anything wrong and.. it's funny when you lack emotional involvement. Here you are.. punishing yourself for how you naturally reacted to emotional stress and trauma caused by your father.

I would force you down with your brother in therapy and I would tell him your story right in front of you.

I would explain to him that your actions were purely part of a natural coping method and that now that you have matured a little more you realize that how you acted back then is not how you would act now and your ego feels very ashamed of how it wasn't able to cope better. Certain indirect trauma can activate you earlier in life in a sexual manner and because no one has explained to you how you should approach those feelings.. you simply didn't know and started a learning experience and because you were being stimulated by the physical sensations you felt.. you naturally were drawn to perform the action again.

You silly silly girl.. you are normal and what you did was normal. But this guilt you put yourself through is because of false moral convictions that you try to apply to yourself in an unrealistic manner. You can't expect your childhood mind to have been able to KNOW WHAT TO DO.

You are hard on yourself because you care what others think and feel and in doing this you express your absolute love for your brother yet you conflict with yourself because you think on some level that what you did is perceived by him now the same way it was then but I tell you this.. how he felt about it then.. didn't stop him from allowing you to do it again because on some level the sensations may have been stimulating...

But before you freak out... neither of you really knew what you were doing. Evil is doing something you know to be wrong. When you were younger you did not know that. You didn't have all this understanding you have now. But the funny thing is.. you expect more from yourself, don't you?

You are being unreasonable!! You can't blame yourself for immature experimentations! Why do you think God protects the young? Their minds are not mature enough yet to know what they do is wrong. God loves you like a child. You should love yourself with that same understanding.

Do you still touch your brother? If not I'd say you don't have any problems because as soon as you matured enough, you realized what you were doing was incorrect and adjusted your behaviors.

Nothing with wrong with your unconscious mind.. just your ego is too stupid to realize that the new rules of morality that you apply to life.. cannot be taken back in time!

Think about it this way... before something becomes illegal.. you can do it all you want but when it becomes illegal you can't do it anymore. But the LAW also says you cannot be punished for it if you did it before it was illegal. That's because to do otherwise would be unfair wouldn't it? Aren't you being unfair to yourself.. your younger self never really fully understood even though you kinda knew.. you didn't fully know.

Suck it up ego. The mind is doing fine.

Ahh. It sounds that easy when you say it. But I get the principle and I must say, it does sound logical and reasonable. There is a source of the matter and there is a consequence.

Yess, well I can't do much more then I already did. I've put my head down and confessed to my brother, just didn't get the reaction I expected. Maybe one day when it comes to his head, or perhaps never. But if i continue to think about it in an obsessive matter, it will certainly not do any good.

But self-forgiveness and letting go are the hardest part.

I know it sounds funny but sometimes the best way to work things out is to simply start talking about it to yourself.

Find a comfortable place where you can feel relaxed. Put a mirror in that room but against a wall where you can't see it. Then.. allow yourself to think about it but separate yourself from who you were because you really aren't that child anymore and it's not fair to punish that child.. cause that's what you are doing. You are punishing that child.

So walk over to that mirror, look at yourself. This is who you are and not a child anymore. You have grown up. You always remember this terrible mistake not because you would do it again but because who you ae is ashamed of that child and who you are now.. is angry st who you were for being so weak.

YOU WERE A CHILD!!!!! Look at who you are now. Look at how much you have grown, how much you care, how much you want the best for the world around you. It is reflected in your grief over what you did before you were this wise and compassionate.

All this growing you have done lays on the foundation of this suffering your EGO anguishes over.

That child you constantly torture.. that child is who made you who you are today. That child is the reason you learned.

So look in that mirror and tell yourself to stop torturing that child. Because of that child.. you are now so much more. That child has always been the strength that guided you to be a better person and you always thought that child was weak but no.. that child has always been the foundation of your strength.

So look in the mirror and forgive that child. You know that child isn't nearly as good as you are. The only reason you judge that child so hard is because that is you and you are always harder on yourself.. aren't you?

Another sign of a good caring person is their convictions but sadly sometimes people convict themselves prematurely. There's a reason the law tries to protect people who are under 18 from being prosecuted on their perm record for petty crimes (not murder). Kids do dumb things... That feeling you get when you look back at things you did as a child and you're like "Man.. I was dumb" and you feel embarrassed. That's because who you are today would never do something that silly but as a child you lacked that experience or knowledge.

Have you ever seen the movie Back to the Future? How he goes back in time, changes the smallest thing, and BAM.. the entire world is changed. Your mind is JUST LIKE THAT. What you experience as a child is amplified in your existence.

As your brain evolves it begins to create associative organizations. Anything not socially recognized by other cells is discarded in favor of like cells (social cells ) but the psychology of it is this..

(Why you control your life and are not a robot as Dr Robert would lead you to believe.)

Your environment molds your very existence, personality, everything yet just like those funny movies where there are twins separated at birth on other sides of the world but.. they happen to do the same jobs or have something strikingly in common.. That's genetics. Those people might feel the same but one will be a gangster and the other a cop. They are naturally drawn to certain behaviors but what they do is dependent on how they were raised to react to these situations. Maybe one guy is taught to be calm and relaxed while the other was taught to punch you in the face ca use he's the bad boy of society and the other is Mr Nice Guy. Oh the humor in reality.

You have free will. The very nature of your choices displays that you have free will to do what you will according to how you interpreted childhood. Isn't that individuality? Also the normal mind is so consciously distorted that only the most critical needs of the body seem to be recognized until it forces the subconscious to force the ego into a logical error loop and force an emotional breakdown where the person lays crying and suffering.

BTW when they say childhood is the most critical time in a child emotional development.. they pretty much mean the first 6 years of school. If you don't break your child but lying to them and tricking them and actually just be truthful to them in a nonabrasive manner but honest manner.. it will help their emotional development. Parenting is often failed by the current societies as they do not have the knowledge required to properly approach their kids ca use no one just told them... BE HONEST. TELL THE KIDS THE TRUTH.

How can a child develop a proper ego in life when you are lying to them during their emotional development?! Grats you just built an emotional bomb that must spend years of their life looking for ways to correct the emotional dysfunction you caused you selfish parents.

If she could have just gone to her parents and felt safe to tell them how she felt.. she could have instantly worked this out but no.. for whatever reason she didn't feel it was okay to tell. She might get punished and no one wants to be hurt.. especially people who know what it is to be hurt.

I am so sorry they did this to you but you have have got to find a way to explain to yourself how it wasn't that little girls fault that happened.

Also while you're looking in the mirror. You might want to tell her you love her for helping you become who you are. It's funny to talk to yourself but it actually helps cause when you see what you are doing to yourself and you realize how you are hurting WHO YOU ARE for things that a silly child did.. doesn't it seem stupid?

You know why it's not stupid? Cause it's sad. Not you punishing yourself though. That is a normal reaction when you don't understand feelings caused by moral conflict..

If you got your moral conflict from the Bible just remember this. No faith ever condemned children for being children. All children went to Heaven by default because even God knew children were just children and often people are refereed to as children by religions. This is because everyone knows there is the Age of Innocents unless you start killing people.. even God knows you were just a child for he sees who you are now.

Now that I reflect back though it is silly isn't it? Here you were thinking you were bad or wrong or broken but no.. everything you did was a normal reaction. Even the guilt you felt is normal and how you try to make yourself a better person.. just means that even though your parents screwed up.. well you are the result and you seem like a really loving person who has normal feelings and emotional reactions.

Parents aren't perfect but you could have turned out like a Narc or something really messed up if they had actually failed you.

So under the logic of science of doctrine of religions I deem you NORMAL. You may forgive yourself and maybe looking in the mirror an d telling that child you forgive her for being.. a child and not knowing.. that sounds like it would help.

People who have ghost limbs.. that's how they get rid of that sensation that they have a leg still. They look in the mirror and touch the area where it used to be. Cause a lot of time sub processes such as, what you did as a child, that you can't correctl y organize with other structures in your mind.. will stikout and bother you psychologically beause you don't understand.

So when I talk to people I add the unconscious structure that is missing in their thoughts and by doing so I give them measurable knowledge that goes far beyond their conscious and actually explains to the unconscious mind as well.. why they should love themselves.

The reason these people usually stay sick is because no one ever explains the truth to them. They get lied to and people try to convince them it is something else but deep inside they KNOW what it is but they don't know why..

I can tell you why and what I say is the truth ALL of your brain can measure and appreciate.

It is so painful to actually accept that I was not the wicked one, that the wickedness was in fact all that was around me and thus it sucked me right in.

Everything you say is beyond truth, I blame the little girl, I am deeply ashamed of her and in all ways want her dead, want her not be in any way attached to me.

I can read everything you say for so many times and it can make me cry so many times.

It's good that you cry it out. It's even healthy for you to provoke the thought of it and allow it to overcome you cause eventually.. you just wont have anymore pain to give for it. Eventually you'll get tired of crying about it.

But for now these are fresh wounds that you must allow yourself to both experience and after a while.. get rid of because you know after a while there will be no point in crying anymore. You'll know when that point comes as well because you'll say to yourself "why am I still crying about this?" and you might feel a little angry at yourself.

Your song is...

Fuel - Hemorrhage

Don't watch the music video.. just listen to the song and know that in the end it is you who is overcoming all of this. All I have done is supply you with the knowledge to help you escape but this is your journey and it goes at your pace and no one but you dictates how fast it gets fixed cause this is your head and these are your feelings.

But I do still smirk at you cause.. you are normal and you convinced yourself you were broken. I know this isn't the time but one day your ego will finish feeling sorry for itself, understand the truth cause you understand it now, and move on.

The dynamics of your mind are just fun to me. I wish I could feel that power of emotion still. I know when it hurts it hurts a lot but all I gotta say to that is.. Three Days Grace: Pain

In my head you are at a funeral saying goodbye to old emotions cause you know that even though they hurt you, those feelings were a part of you, and now you must say goodbye to that fallen part.

Just as we feel pain for fallen loved ones.. so to do we feel pain for ourselves and the knowledge that our innocents was somehow cheated away from us.

I hope you aren't mad at me for showing you how to open that door. I know it put you in a new room and you have to work things out. I've been there. A lot more questions.. but you know what.. it's better you know the truth than have an emotional breakdown.

We should never hate who we were. For who we are was built on the foundation of who we were and to hate who we were is to hate who we have become.

One day you will forgive that little girl. Everyone else forgave her. It's too bad we are always hardest on ourselves.

I understand that you have a serious problem, but please, don't read too much into the words of Zenemy. I know this man, and you will only end up in a place worse than you are now if you take every word to heart. Siphon all truth from his posts, and read no more into it, it would only make things worse in the long run. Please, trust this kind stranger.

Oh no! It his begam!

Oh f uck, I think I know who you are...

I don't understand..

Daniel. - Fascinating why?? It hurts.. :(

I find it fascinating because it is largely alien to my own experience. You received good counsel from the doc and others, yet you imply that you are unable to take their advice because the guilt is oh so strong. That is interesting to me.

For the longest time I could not articulate the psychological differences between myself and most people around me. Until the last year and a half, that is. This, the experience of overwhelming guilt, is one of those differences, hence the fascination.

Do you really believe that it is impossible for you to change your thinking on this issue?

The overwhelming guilt is something we put on ourselves. I put it on myself by myself not being able to accept that I am actually that person that did what I did. Your mind goes completely mad and you demonize yourself and your actions to the maximum. The pain you create yourself at this moment is so great you wish you were dead. Not every person is capable of doing this. I guess this is the opposite of being a sociopath and not having any feelings at all.

What would change my thinking? Therapy.. More and more talk with my brother.. Years.. Death.. The church.. Nothing and nobody at all.. I don't know..

I am going to try this again. You are NOT that person who did what you did. You are NOT that person who did what you did. You are NOT that person who did what you did.

The idea that you are that person is a misunderstanding based on the false, conventional assumption that because a person has the same name and the "same" body, that she is forever a single unchanging entity, forever responsible for everything she has ever done, said, or thought. This is patently false, and you should put that idea out of your mind immediately. It is just incorrect, false, erroneous, untrue, fallacious, groundless, unsound, illogical, and incorrect. (By the way, I put the quotation marks on "same" because your body is not the same as it was even a few years ago--all the cells have been replaced with others, and your mind is not the same either, obviously.

Wake up, hear, and listen, bloody tears, You are NOT the person who carried out that sexual experimentation with your brother. You are NOT. You are NOT. You are NOT. This is very clear and very obvious if you will carefully consider it. You are now a person who would never do such things, not she who did them. That person, the "sex pervert," does not exist any longer, and your guilt is just a story you tell yourself. Perhaps you like that story and enjoy the guilty pleasure of blaming yourself and feeling sorry for yourself. If so, have fun. But I imagine that you are obsessed, deluded, and need help.

Given your level of suicidal ideation and depression, if you cannot in this very moment accept my words and drop this matter right now, I strongly recommend psychotherapy immediately. I say "strongly recommend" because if my words along with the other wise words in this thread cannot change your outlook, no words will avail, and you will require something stronger than words. In a case like yours in which logic fails to convince, and assurances of others fail as well, the best medicine I know is hard-nosed psychotherapy wielded by an expert practitioner. Get some please.

Be well.

I get it. I get everything you are saying. And I didn't fail to notice how you labeled the matter "experimentation" and not "abuse". I get it, I get it, I get. I'm letting myself be sick like it's going to be a worthy retribution when in fact it really is not. I need to find strength in the present and put the past behind.

All the re-thinking, crying and obsessing about it in the world is not going to change anything. I shall pull every piece of strength in my mind and body to put this into a box and not open it again by myself. I feel the only person that has the right to open that box is my brother, as well as, that only he has the right to judge me or expect anything of me.

I reject goofy, conservative, religion - minded, judgmental people that fear and demonize everything. And yet I sought their judgment and in fact and in a way let myself become them.

Good work. Keep at it and you will get over this.
Be well.

Just to conclude the subject. I found the strength in my body and I spoke with my mother, told her everything. She wanted to kick my ass, but just because I've let a thing like this eat me up for so long. She forbid me to ever go and seek answers on the internet again. She told me about the experiences she and her playmates, cousins and all the people she knows had. She feels bad for the mistake of not seeing my need for guidance and feels sad that I myself didn't come and speak to her much earlier.

Everybody around me find it funny that I feel bad for such a "stupid" thing. My boyfriend, My mother, My brother. They all see it in a way "child growing up and exploring". If I am surrounded with people like that, how did I end up in this state. I do not know.

Conclusion. I will talk a lot more times with my mother. But I no longer feel the heavy burden and child molester stigma on me. Maybe somebody will disagree and think that I am. But, to them I say: Don't care. My mother said I'm allowed to think I'm a good person. :D

I am so glad you managed to find peace. Your story really touched me as I went through something similar myself. You are not alone and what happened is quite normal. You resolve gives me hope that I will move on with my life very soon, and somehow find a way to forgive myself.

Since you already raised my thread, I shall answer you here.

Dear Deborah,

There is no emotion so destructive and overwhelming as guilt. It can be positive in a way, because you take a good look at yourself and choose to make yourself to be a better person. But the problematic part is forgiving yourself for that what is already done. I personally see no reason for any human being to dedicate his whole life to agony and suffering over any event, no matter how bad it was. It has no sense to me. The more efficient redemption would be making things better, correcting the mistake as much as you can, helping yourself and others. In all, being that better person. The concept of eternal suffering is something that is not so much natural to humans, it is mostly religious. So much of them deprive themselves of living this life they have now, to the fullest and not postponing things for later, some imaginative eternal glory where everything will finally have sense and those that were virtuous shall drink wine and roll on clouds and those or should I say, we that were not will endure hell's barbecue. I see you are in great deal of suffering over something that happened over 20 years and more and all of you is now deeply ashamed and is depriving herself of happiness because of those events. Again, it has no sense. Imagine the girl that you were then, those that did those things you are ashamed of, the little girl. Close your eyes and portray her in your mind. Now tell me. Does this girl look like and evil creature that came out of satanic pit to you? Or does she look scared, immature, unaware, not really realizing the concepts of so many life thing? Look on the streets these little girls and then imagine they did this awful thing you think you did. And what would you do to them? Beat them up? Close them up? Make them suffer in agony?

YOU ARE BLAMING A CHILD FOR BEING A CHILD. But this child is not you now. She didn't know what you know. If you are now, at this moment, not doing what she was doing, why are you not leaving this child alone and letting her fade away? Why are you constantly causing her pain? Judging her? It's so easy for you as an adult. Because you know. You mentioned you hope you will find peace as much as you think I did. Well, if I truly found the peace I need I wouldn't really still hang around here. It never stops hurting and it never goes away, but you tell to the son of a bit*h that is destroying you that you will not surrender and to all of the voices you hear in your head, the voices of people you feel that would judge you and tell you you shouldn't even be alive to shut up. You know why. Because they haven't lived your life. It's so easy for them to judge upon others, but I wish they were me only for one minute of my growing up and then I would see how virtuous and moral they would truly be. Never let anyone WHO ISN'T YOU AND HAS NOT BEEN YOU, OR IN YOUR SITUATION judge you and impose their fake morals to you. I take the blame for my mistakes. I truly do. I am deeply sorry. But the point is not to let the general opinions of uneducated and hypocritical people teach you about human body, sexuality and natural responding to your surroundings. So what are you doing that? Because when you go to the store and see other women you feel like an impostor. Because you are a "sex-offender" and they are angel's breath. Don't be stupid. There is no such thing as a perfect human being, who has never mistaken, never sinned, never done wrong.

And what did you truly do that was so bad? Compared to me and so many others here, what did you do??? I know it's easy to say for me but if I was you, I would get over this thing in a heart beat. Every time, a person arrives on this forum it simply proves the concept of Dr. Salzman's explanation on these issues. He doesn't have to do a research on it, because the research is coming to him. Don't get me wrong, just because some things happen it doesn't mean they should be taken as accepted behavior. Rape is not normal. Murder is not normal. But silly children who have no real knowledge over human body or anything connected to that, responding in a way that makes adults shocked, just means we have a whole bunch of stupid and ignorant adults who again have no idea about human development, about sexuality, about curiosity. We are not all the same, and we do not respond in equal ways. This is the sole concept of diversity and the variety of man kind. The idea that so many of us are born evil, capable of doing this "horrible" things makes me not want to ever be born at all. Because what's the point then really? Evil is doing something you know to be wrong, and not that child knowledge "this might be wrong", but truly knowing. I see you mentioned my mother. Yes I confided in her, and not just her. My secret is pretty much not a secret anymore. My boyfriend knows it. His mother knows it. My brother knows it. My step-father knows it. My good male friend knows it. And they all think I'm ridiculous. In a way I got lucky because I am surrounded with liberated and educated people that don't think inside of the box. And they all are trying to help me. I have also been to a psychotherapist, and you should do that also if you feel it is killing you inside. But be careful. Not all of them are also people you can confide in. They are after all humans, just like us. Why am I then still suffering? Because it's a disease. I got infected reading up all of the bullshit online.

The logical conclusion to all of this is actually you should never judge yourself by other stories and other people. Just because some girl wrote on the internet her brother or sister touched her when they were little and she is destroyed by it, it doesn't mean you are the perpetrator. Each story is on her own. Your story is not her own. I doubt your brother even remembers these things and the concept that he is somehow destroyed by them is completely unlikely. So if nobody is accusing you on doing him wrong, why are you accusing yourself? You know now it is wrong. But you actually know it would be wrong now perhaps. But it perhaps wasn't that wrong then. Only accepting that will help you move on with your life. You can not erase it. You can not make it go away. Learn to live with it, with yourself. Be human. What else can you be? Best to you..

It is obvious to me that you already know the way out of your dilemma. Here's why I say that:

See how that works? You are doing it to yourself. Like mental mast urbation, sado masochist style. Perhaps, on a level you don't want to acknowledge even to yourself, you get a kick out of the anguish. Sometimes emotional pain is the only way we know we are truly alive.



Oh you know. STOP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING! As in, when those crazy thoughts about you being a vile pedophile come into your brain, fight them off. You know, you really don't have to believe everything you think. Sometimes our thoughts are more like enemies than friends. Question your thinking, look for interpretations that are helpful rather than harmful, that are realistic and centered in the present. And if that truly isn't possible for you, then by all means, as Doc Robert says, get some help!

Or not.

See this is bad.

Bloodytears gets good advice from me and then you all try to make her paranoid when she is already vulnerable. I don't take pot shots at people who are already down. There is no honor in corning an already wounded animal and killing it. That kind of cowardly thinking is only used by one mindset.

CataCoward you are.. The Fool. The moment you open your mouth.. all that talk you do becomes fairly obvious smoke. You have the mentality of a bored 12 year old child and the mental capacity of a.. unanimated object... or toddler perhaps.

But I can help you! First I want you to find your favorite possession. Now shove it up your rear. Now take your moms black ***** and shove that in their too. Did you notice how even though your mothers ***** was bigger than yours that they felt pretty much the same once inserted in your rear? Now reflect on that and remember that the only way you can control the pain is to cut yourself. That way you control it. But don't use your mothers hedgers for that till after you're done sucking on her tit and acting like the weak, pathetic, fool that you really are.

No one cares about your feelings. By no one I do mean me and by not caring I do mean I don't but I do enjoy watching you wet your pants and grab your security blanket.

Making weak people emotionally upset is really the best you got.. reflect on that and by all means.. take a shower. I'm tired of smelling your stink. You suck.. we get it. By all means though.. reply and show me the true face of stupid. I know you're retarded. You fight like they do. Your actions made you less than me and now you want to suck on me emotionally like you suck on your mother physically. I don't care that your dad abuses you either. You're a weak little puss. I don't care how you feel but I enjoy crapping on you. It brings me pleasure.

Please reply... I enjoy hurting you cause .. no one cares if I hurt you and no one here will protect you from me.

I don't run away and beat up on the weak egos. I smash the supposed strong in the face and watch them fall in their own weakness.

20 years of emotional numbing can do that to you. You gotta start when you're.. 1. But the good news is.. you have the IQ of me when I was 1 so perhaps.. perhaps you can achieve this.

Don't give up your dreams. Look at that.. that one movie where some emotionally retarded fgt like you made it somewhere.. but I'm pretty sure he ends up getting killed cause.. well the petty douches like you always die.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean it for more than a moment. Then I stopped caring.. about Cata.. whatever. Classic piece of trash is how I perceive his name. If you're going to be uncreative at least give yourself the standard "Angel of -insert BS-" or the "Emo-of -vampire-darkness-scary-but-scrony-little-twig?!"

God, you are even boring to me when I am ranting in mania. You understand that right? I'm in mania for about the next oh.. few months. Mania is when I feel like God but don't worry.. according to these scares.. I'm not superman. But then again. neither are you.

At some part of that... I hurt his feelings, Hexi. Like real feelings that he will experience for at least 10 minutes cause they can't turn off their sad emotions.. they are mentally inferior.

Why the switch to "Zenemy" anyway?

Thank you for sharing your story BloodyTears and good luck to you. I still find guilt like this absolutely fascinating.