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Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Genes which produced traits which fostered proliferation of themselves tended to spread through the population. This is basic Darwin. This tendency is true not only of physical and mental traits, but also psychological ones--in my invented example, generosity. Once a psychological trait has become established and widely shared in a population, that trait will seem "normal," and so become a basis for shared values, which, when further institutionalized, become a system of morality.

I think you do have the idea, Drangontongue. One caveat: I have simplified greatly. In actual practice, things are far more complicated than in my example. Nevertheless, my example does explain, as you asked, how morality could have arisen via evolution.

Be well.

Website: www.dr-robert.com

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Excellent summation, including the proviso about over simplifying what is undoubtedly a complex subject.

I was going to ask you what your thoughts were on why those of us who are a bit deficient on the moral emotion thing continue to exist in the population, but I remembered you covered that here. I also read the sociobiological paper written by someone named Linda Mealey which purports to give an "integrated" explanation for the variance in conscientiousness which gives rise to the so called sociopath. That was also very interesting. All of it is, really.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

My friend is currently getting his MD/PHD. He stands with a Masters degree in neuroscience and is about 2 years out from being a brain sergeant. I have mentioned your theories to him. I have shown him your research and he dismissed your information like it was nothing more than a joke.

Then he explained to me the difference between neuroscience and psychology. Neuroscience is actual knowledge of how the brain functions in exact terms. Neuroscience is.. science. It can be explained in real terms where as psychology is more or less.. an educated guess because it cannot be explained in concrete terms.

However, I have learned that while we pamper the ego.. neuroscience has no such restraint.


In this chapter we examine how emotion is represented in the brain. A neural analysis of emotion must take into account at least four issues. First, we must understand how stimuli acquire emotional significance and what roles conscious cognitive processes and automatic unconscious processes have in determining whether a particular stimulus at a particular moment will have emotional significance (Figure 50-1). Second, we must understand how certain autonomic and skeletomotor responses are triggered once a stimulus acquires emotional significance. Third, we must identify the circuits in the cerebral cortex responsible for feelings. Finally, we need to understand how somatic emotional states and conscious feeling states interact—how feedback from peripheral, autonomic, and skeletomotor systems to the cerebral cortex shapes emotional experience.

Furthermore, patients in whom the spinal cord has been accidentally severed so that they lack feedback from the autonomic nervous system appear to experience a reduction in the intensity of their emotions. <---where emotional impact comes from



Dr. Robert, have you applied the laws of neuroscience in any way to your psychology theories? Can you give me specific locations of the brain that are in control of said emotional reactions or show me the process from which you base your information?

No offense but after considerable influence from the research of neuroscience.. it just doesn't seem like you are really saying anything at all. You have identified a possible theory that could be associated to one culture. But without any scientific support.. how can I give that any more thought than pleasant theory?

You have not shown me the mechanical basis for which the external observation of children was made. Besides having kids sitting there playing with toys.. what else was done? How where the toddlers brains analyzed and observed? Was there an increased heart rate during their decision making? What science do we have to support these observations?

For the love of God.. give me something more than what I think is coming.. please... please don't tell me all this knowledge is simply based off a controlled observation....

Show me the guts of your research rather than this amusing experimental stuff. I have come to learn that psychology in it's whole is more or less a response to mental illness that seems to stem from anglo-saxon decent.

You must forgive my change in nature. My current influence of thought is that neuroscience is where the truth comes from and psychology is just a distorted attempt to achieve comprehension. But really what bothers me is the lack of evidence is psychology. Which rather associates it to religion for me and while I enjoy the fables of both religion and the applicable fables of psychology.. i must recognize that neither psychology nor religion share in real truths only interpretive thoughts of what the truth is. As psychology was developed to replace mans philosophical knowledge of man.. I cannot see where it has achieved much else.

While I agree there is truth in psychology.. I don't agree that either psychology or religion can achieve true understanding and comprehension of reality as it is.. reality.. without emotional distortions. Science is cold facts of truth. It is not a happy thought or nice way of being passively aggressive. No, it defines the rules of engagement and eliminates all the theory BS.

If you have nothing real in the terms of science.. I feel cheated and somewhat deceived by you. As I look to you to not BS me and it seems like you have unintentionally violated my boundary of comfort and now I must re-evaluate my perception of all of your theories.

Ever notice life seems to have a lot of change all at once or no change at all? Like.. it will be quiet but then a friend will call and someone will knock on the door ect.. I take comfort in the chaos theory. Or could you rather tell me what the perception actually is?

I want to believe that neuroscience is the study of the hardwired structure of the mind and psychology the software of the brain. I want to believe because there is a noted gap in the knowledge of the exact functioning of emotions. Like sometimes an emotion is experienced before the body actually reacts to the emotion. Meaning that emotions are both a chemical reaction and electrical impulses.

I need a faith refill and don't give me that church crap. I want a real refill not wishful thinking. :-(

I feel like a kid building something with legos. For the longest time it seemed I was building exactly what I wanted but then I was introduced to new pieces that have changed the dynamics of everything. Why use those weaker pieces when I can use these better pieces and build a better castle?

Mania.. stop the mania.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Nice copy-pasting there.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Hexi
Nice copy-pasting there.


Wow, how pathetic can you get. This wasn't posted by me.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

But you responded within 3 minutes.

I can see why authentication is a concern to some. How much value can you really invest in something so temporary? Doesn't bother me at all.. really.. it just levels the playing field. Takes away all the dramatic flare and simplifies it down to basic human stupidity.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Your friend--despite his upcoming status as what you are calling a "brain sergeant," whatever that is, seems to be lacking a bit of information. One sign of foolishness is not knowing how much you don't know. This is what is called "sophomoric," ie. being only part way through ones basic education, but believing one is already hatched as a pro. Perhaps by the time this guy actually earns his degrees and works in the field for some years, he will have learned and understood more:

Recent brain scan technology has enabled studies of the timing of what is called "volition," or will, versus the timing of associated movement—in other words, studies of the timing of the experience ofdeciding to move versus actually doing so—which lead to the surprising result that the the neural preparations for moving occur prior to the experience of choosing, deciding, or willing
to move, perhaps even ten seconds earlier.

Your own dismissal of the entire field of psychology, and your unquestioning belief in what you imagine is "science" is beyond foolish, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to make the effort to explain why. Perhaps one of the Forum regulars would like to take a crack at it, or at some of the many other misapprehensions in your letter.

Be well.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

dr-robert
Your friend--despite his upcoming status as what you are calling a "brain sergeant," whatever that is, seems to be lacking a bit of information. One sign of foolishness is not knowing how much you don't know. This is what is called "sophomoric," ie. being only part way through ones basic education, but believing one is already hatched as a pro. Perhaps by the time this guy actually earns his degrees and works in the field for some years, he will have learned and understood more:

Recent brain scan technology has enabled studies of the timing of what is called "volition," or will, versus the timing of associated movement—in other words, studies of the timing of the experience ofdeciding to move versus actually doing so—which lead to the surprising result that the the neural preparations for moving occur prior to the experience of choosing, deciding, or willing
to move, perhaps even ten seconds earlier.

I'll take that as a "no".

Oh and interesting point you bring up but very vague. Let me be more specific. I have the book in front of me , after all.

"Functional brain imaging demonstrates that neural activity in the amygdala is consistent with a role in processing emotions, especially fear. In an experiment performed by Breiter et al., subjects were positioned in an fMRI machine and brain activity was monitored as they viewed pictures of neutral, happy , and fearful faces. Brain activity in response to fearful faces showed more amygdala activity than in response to faces with neutral expressions. The amygdala activation was specific to fear, as no difference in activity occurred in response to happy and neutral expressions."

Here's more food for thought.

"WHEN WE ARE FRIGHTENED our heart races, our breathing becomes rapid and shallow, our mouth becomes dry, our muscles tense, our palms become sweaty, and we may want to run. These bodily changes are mediated by the autonomic nervous system, which controls heart muscle, smooth muscle, and exocrine glands. The autonomic nervous system is distinct from the somatic nervous system, which controls skeletal muscle. As we shall learn in the next chapter, even though the neural control of emotion involves several regions, including the amygdala and the limbic association areas of the cerebral cortex, they all work through the hypothalamus to control the autonomic nervous system. The hypothalamus coordinates behavioral response to insure bodily homeostasis, the constancy of the internal environment. The hypothalamus, in turn, acts on three major systems: the autonomic nervous system, the endocrine system, and an ill-defined neural system concerned with motivation. In this chapter we shall first examine the autonomic nervous system and then go on to consider the hypothalamus. In the next two chapters, we shall examine emotion and motivation, behavioral states that depend greatly on autonomic and hypothalamic mechanisms."

My information is derived from Neuroscience: exploring the brain and Kandel: Principles of neuroscience.

That "neural preparation for moving".. is actually refereed to as the autonomic nervous system.

All I'm asking for is scientific proof and you're acting just like a preacher acts when I have questions about Jesus he can't answer and he begins expressing his frustrations, unconsciously, and begins distancing himself from the confrontation.

Your reaction.. was unexpected. You staggered in my presence. I kicked the high chair out from under you and before you knew what was going on.. you were fighting on what you perceived as "my level". Interesting that no matter how sharp the mind.. I can bring out.. the human in people. Eat your heart out, Hexi.

As Froyd would say.. tell me about your father.

LMAO!!!

But you must appreciate that no matter how much you think of yourself or society.. I prove you wrong by forcing you to act out in a very human manner. Which is how all humans are programmed by their genes to act. Which also enforces that "change" is not possible when everyone is encoded to function within a certain structure. I proved this by provoking you with passive measures.

Hexi, had been attacking your argument directly in a hostile manner where as I took the high ground on you, mentally forcing you down, and in doing so.. proving that even a trained mine that is aware of psychology cannot help buy concede to their natural design.

Now tell me I do not appreciate psychology or value it. My actions, rather effectively, prove that psychology has a foundation which, if properly built upon, can enable you to achieve a great deal in social settings.

I'm sorry but this was not planned this way by me. Maybe my autonomic nervous system analyzed the information and said "no way" but concisouly I was with you.. till I started thinking to myself "Hexi, is rather smart.. what does he see that I don't." Then I started analyzing my logic. I then remembered that while my friend was mentioning PET scans and what not.. Dr Robert mentioned no such advanced system of detection but instead his information is based off primitive outward observations which neuroscience has proven, through alterations in the neocortex, to be an invalid method of detection.

Let me also explain why. These are infant or toddler children? Without DNA analysis.. you don't know if these children are normal or will have a mental disorder. You do not have a BASE for your information to function off of because you cannot prove that all of these children were normal. If they had done brain scans and actually observed the functions as they happened in the childs brain.. that would be amazing in a good way. Cause I would like to support that theory.

Your state of the art method of detection.. has been employed and failed for the last 6000 years but by all means.. let us not deviate from course simply because a rational person stopped us and said "but we can't prove anything at all without real time neural data". Curse the naysayers yarrr!!!

Didn't we JUST get done talking about how science enlightens us from religious darkness? ...and all your scientific knowledge leads you to believe that the best way to analyze someone is to.. observe them with your eyeballs and be like "okay I probably unconsciously have been signaling this child... as my very theory says that people already know right from wrong.. meaning that the child can already, unconsciously, perceive, on Mr genetic level, that some people are good and bad." Did you try having bad people teach the kid? Perhaps the child would respond to bad people in a different manner. You don't know.. you didn't do the research required to know.

I don't believe in much that I can't see or prove. I've been let down too many times in the past to carry all my faith in such a foolish manner.

Call me what you will. I've seen your method employed before..

Jack Sparrow: "We fight.. to run away."


It's ugly when egos collide. We should be more civil.. but it is not our nature. Which is something that both your theory and my facts agree upon.

So really.. we are well but I am more well than you. For some part of me understands that our interaction is normal and accepts it. Where as you will look back on this and think "**** I was out of character" but really you just showed your true character. Makes you look more human. I'm sure Daniel is in the corner crying right now.

I can't help it! If you had mania issues you would be the same way. I'm mentally disabled by my condition, ****it. Feel compassion for me. No one else does. Try living a life where no one has compassion for you at all because they all think you are a monster and then come cry to me about my ego being all out of line. I'm j/k no one knows I'm psycho?! Why would I want them to treat me like that? "Oh psychopaths are liars." No crap, you would be to had you have to live with a bunch of "I'm superior to blah blah blah but I act just like I'm programmed to act regardless of conscious knowledge."

Wishful thinking often leads down the path of good intentions.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Zenemy--

Not only are you rude, ill-mannered, and disrespectful, but your anger is palpable and obviously did not begin with this particular subject, nor with my views about so-called "free-will." You seem to be using this subject as an excuse to ventilate your fear and your disappointment about something (I cannot guess what), but that is not the objective of this kind of discussion which is aimed at trying to explore our ethical situation and moral possibilities as human beings, not doing psychotherapy for Zenemy. Somehow you have tried to convert a discussion about free-will--which, as James points out, is a vital part of any serious inquiry into human consciousness--into an argument about whether psychology is inferior to neuroscience, or whether psychological thinking is valid at all. Apparently your half-baked student-friend has hypnotized you into playing "mine is bigger than yours," which is a game only fools enjoy.

Further, Zenemy, you are completely intellectually dishonest, and that sticks out like a sore thumb in a discussion thread which has been respectful, intelligent, and open-minded. You asked me to show you some scientific data to back up my idea that free-will may be an illusion. I gave you two links to such data. You failed even to comment, and instead changed the subject to "fearful faces" which has absolutely nothing to do with free-will. Did you even look at the links? I rather hope you did not, because if you did read them and then went on to produce that rant of yours, you are in deep trouble intellectually.

Your over-valuation of neurology as a mode of understanding human motivation is beyond absurd. Do you really imagine that examining the physical characteristics of the brain can explain the entire universe of human experience?

I have taken the time to reply again because this thread has attracted a good bit of interest, and I did not want anyone to be confused by the nonsense you have been spewing. However, I will not reply to you again. You would do better, in my opinion to stop writing and start reading. Try a basic text on neuropsychology.

I suggest also that you get your brain sergeant student-friend to x-ray your brain to find out what happened to development in the area which provides for honest inquiry and respect for learning. Perhaps he can also check the area that stimulates you to call others stupid (projection!) to see how it became so overdeveloped.

Be well.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Daniel--

Thanks for the link. Enjoyed reading it.

Be well.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

dr. robert
Genes which produced traits which fostered proliferation of themselves tended to spread through the population. This is basic Darwin. This tendency is true not only of physical and mental traits, but also psychological ones--in my invented example, generosity. Once a psychological trait has become established and widely shared in a population, that trait will seem "normal," and so become a basis for shared values, which, when further institutionalized, become a system of morality.

I think you do have the idea, Dragontongue. One caveat: I have simplified greatly. In actual practice, things are far more complicated than in my example. Nevertheless, my example does explain, as you asked, how morality could have arisen via evolution.

Be well.

Okay! I think I've got it, then. :) So (just to make sure)... supposing humans had evolved in such a way that abortions were impossible, would rape be an acceptable way to proliferate your genes? Obviously the mother might not take care of the child once it was born, but when a woman finally gives birth to the baby she's carried for nine months the maternal instinct usually kicks right in. Assuming that worked in nine out of ten cases, would there be no (or little) moral stigma associated with rape?

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Zenemy,

I would like very much for you to produce for me a comprehensive attempt to explain large scale civilization, solely through neuroscience. Obviously any attempt to do so, not involving neuroscience, is a waste of time

I would then like you to show me a neuroscientist who, solely through neuroscience, can provide helpful relationship advice, or perhaps console a rape victim.

While your at it, perhaps you can ask your friend to solve the hard problem of consciousness. If so I'd like to meet him.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness)

You seem unduly angry - maybe you should talk to a neurotherapist.



Dragontongue,

If you were trying to make rape virtuous, I think you'd need to flesh out your example a little bit, but you seem to get the idea. If it were better for the species for rape to occur frequently then individuals inclinded to it would have proliferated, and it would be more common and possibly cultural by now. Of course, the psychological damage it causes preclude this, as having stable mothers to raise children is also important.

As it happens, many cultures were almost indifferent to rape (just look at how often it comes up in Hellenistic Myths, and how often it was punished).

Sadly, some parts of the world still are indifferent to rape

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

James
Zenemy,

I would like very much for you to produce for me a comprehensive attempt to explain large scale civilization, solely through neuroscience. Obviously any attempt to do so, not involving neuroscience, is a waste of time

I would then like you to show me a neuroscientist who, solely through neuroscience, can provide helpful relationship advice, or perhaps console a rape victim.

While your at it, perhaps you can ask your friend to solve the hard problem of consciousness. If so I'd like to meet him.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_correlates_of_consciousness)

You seem unduly angry - maybe you should talk to a neurotherapist.



Dragontongue,

If you were trying to make rape virtuous, I think you'd need to flesh out your example a little bit, but you seem to get the idea. If it were better for the species for rape to occur frequently then individuals inclinded to it would have proliferated, and it would be more common and possibly cultural by now. Of course, the psychological damage it causes preclude this, as having stable mothers to raise children is also important.

As it happens, many cultures were almost indifferent to rape (just look at how often it comes up in Hellenistic Myths, and how often it was punished).

Sadly, some parts of the world still are indifferent to rape


You're obviously stupid. All the drugs given to patients suffering from any kind of disorder are made through knowledge of neuroscience. The brain is rather important. Ask your doctor if he would let a psychologist cut his head open and play with his brain. That look of stupid he will give you.. I am expressing now.

No offensive really.. just your argument is retarded. Not saying you are.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

It was not an argument, but a rhetorical comment that I'd hoped might produce some reflection. Obviously it failed.

It would be stupid to undergo brain surgery by anyone other than a brain surgeon, which I did not suggest, nor imply.

What I did suggest, however, was that if I have suffered a major psychological trauma, I would take little comfort from a neurological explanation of my trauma (all neuroscience can currently offer, and even then, barely), nor would I receive PRACTICAL advice on what to do now.

So maybe it's a little early to dismiss it all, which you seem to be doing. This of course does not mean that neuroscience is bunk, or not worth studying, before you try to read that into my post.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

James
It was not an argument, but a rhetorical comment that I'd hoped might produce some reflection. Obviously it failed.


No, James.. it did not fail.. you failed.

James... you aren't helping your cause when you add your retardation to the bottom of a two sentence paragraph.. and the next paragraph begins with "I would then like...". You know what that means? It means any rhetorical suggestion made logically ends as soon as you imply the "I would THEN like.." in the next paragraph. ....light bulb?

Do you believe there is any emotional fuel behind my words? How do you feel? Are you more aware? More alert? Think about it. You have no unconscious suggestions going on right now... or do you.

Again I tell you.. I am not directing any hate towards you, only your ego. Which does not appear to handle this very well. Perhaps I should try a different method of adaptation. One more suitable...

Also.. as for you.. Dr Robert. I have much amusement with you. Remember this comment?

"Do you really imagine that examining the physical characteristics of the brain can explain the entire universe of human experience?"

Here is my universe explained in neuroscience. I suggest you consider this as it explains everything you obviously have failed to comprehend when making a vague attempt at analyzing me. Which directly influences your arguements. If you can't figure me out and neuroscience can.. than perhaps it is you who needs to start listening with your closedmind.


The EEG Reflects Two Modes of Firing of Thalamic Neurons

The EEG is important in assessing wakefulness because electrical activity in the cerebral cortex reflects the firing patterns in the thalamocortical system, a necessary component of maintaining a waking state. As we shall learn in the next two chapters, electrical activity measured from the surface of the skull reflects the summated activity of synaptic potentials in the dendrites of cortical neurons. The specific rhythmic pattern of the EEG waveform thus reflects synchronized waves of excitatory synaptic potentials reaching the cerebral cortex from the thalamus. The rhythmic nature of the thalamic activity is due, in turn, to two important properties of the thalamic relay neurons.




Figure 45-9 Thalamic relay neurons have transmission and burst modes of signaling activity.
Left. Burst mode. When thalamic neurons are hyperpolarized by inhibitory postsynaptic potentials they respond to brief depolarizations with a burst of action potentials (left). Each burst of action potentials causes a barrage of synchronized excitatory postsynaptic potentials in the dendrites of cortical neurons, producing an EEG slow-wave pattern known as synchronized activity.
Right. Transmission mode. When thalamic neurons are in a more depolarized state, incoming excitatory potentials produce single action potentials. In this mode the thalamic neuron faithfully transmits sensory impulses to the cerebral cortex but the complex patterning of thalamic firing produces nearly constant, small-scale alterations in the dendritic potentials of cortical neurons. The resulting EEG pattern of fast, low-voltage waves is termed desynchronized.



Damage to Either Branch of the Ascending Arousal System May Impair Consciousness

Experimental lesion studies and clinical experience indicate that injury to either branch of the ascending arousal system—the pathway through the thalamus or the pathway through the hypothalamus—can impair consciousness (Figure 45-10). Transection of the brain stem below the level of the rostral pons does not affect the level of consciousness. Acute transections rostral to the level of the inferior colliculus invariably result in coma, a state of profound unarousability. Smaller lesions involving just the paramedian reticular formation of the midbrain are sufficient to produce this result, whereas large lesions of the lateral tegmentum of the upper brain stem do not cause coma. Lesions of the paramedian reticular formation up to the junction of the midbrain and the diencephalon damage axons arising from all components of the ascending arousal system and result in impairment of consciousness.

Lesions of the posterior lateral hypothalamus interrupt the pathway through the hypothalamus. This injury results in profound slowing of the EEG and behavioral unarousability, even though the branch through the thalamus remains intact. Conversely, injury to the thalamus or its reticular input prevents the brain from achieving a desynchronized or wakeful state. If the injury is sufficiently severe, the EEG rhythm itself is lost.

****************

I don't care what you think because I am incapable of caring... for more than a moment. I care for a moment but then it dissolves and I start laughing again. I lack the consciousness to really care one way or another. So when you think I'm projecting it's actually just REFLECTING and doing all this other crap.. you're just wasting your time trying to over analyze. Looking for emotions that aren't there nor are you able to understand that as any surface feelings that would arise would quickly recede a moment later. Mean ing the expression of fustration in one moment is not felt nor expressed in the next yet you would assume these thoughts to be shared throughout the conversation as that is the reaction of a normal person.

Dr Robert.. Dr Long.. Dr whatever.. People can come into your office, lie straight to your face, and the good ones get what they want. What does that say about your line of work? Or what about the fact you aren't ready to directling engage anything I said. You just divert in another direction. I see your ego flailing about. You may not consciously see it but I do. Your behavioral pattern has changed to an elevated state. Which means you feel threatened. Do you? Are you defensive in any manner right now? Take into account that I am not. My ego is se cure regardless of judgement as it isn't a primary function of my being.

Oh I like how you call for help from your followers... CALLING ALL BANDWAGON FALLACIES. Dr Robert needs your help! Followed by your insinuated superiority attempt as you quite literally.. run away from me. But in the end you express these to be a topic of debate but instead of debating the evidence at hand you keep insisting that what.. no neuroscience information could possibly be valid in understanding how the brain works? Are you Effin kidding me? Your next move is to be like "la la la I can't hear you" at which time I hope this server explodes from packetflooding.

Dr. Long used that exact technique of avoidance. His ego perceived itself to be under attack and dropped his morals in ord er to attack what he saw as a threat. hey isn't this thread about morality and free will? It only provokes me when you run. It's like the smell of blood to a shark. In trying to avoid me you only attract my attention that much more. You should know that. You're a psychologist or something.


I fail to see why you are thinking out of order anyway. You can't go straight to free will and morality without first knowing several other factors such as:

-The Neural Basis of Cognition
-Perception
-Movement
-Arousal, Emotion, and behavioral homeostasis

Each one is a healthy chapter long.

You pose the question of morality.. I answer using information supported by someone I assume you should respect as he was the expert of your field. I think you'll catch his name when you see it. Tell me your thoughts and why you disagree, if you do. Which would be interesting as the information seems to support your theory.


"SO FAR IN THIS BOOK OUR discussion of the neural control of behavior has focused on how the brain translates external sensory information about events in the environment into coherent perceptions and motor action. In the final two parts of the book we examine how development and learning profoundly shape the brain's ability to do this. These parts of the book are to a large degree concerned with the cognitive aspects of behavior—what a person knows about the outside world. However, behavior also has noncognitive aspects that reflect not what the individual knows but what he or she needs or wants. Here we are concerned with how individuals respond to internal rather than external stimuli. This is the domain of motivation.

Motivation is a catch-all term that refers to a variety of neuronal and physiological factors that initiate, sustain, and direct behavior. These internal factors are thought to explain, in part, variation in the behavior of an individual over time. As discussed earlier in this book, the behaviorists who dominated the study of behavior in the first half of this century largely ignored internal factors in their attempts to explain behavior. With the rise of cognitive psychology a few decades ago the behaviorist paradigm has receded and motivation, with all of its complexity, has become the subject of serious scientific study once again.

The biological study of motivation has until quite recently been confined to studies of simple physiological or homeostatic instances of motivation called drive states. For this reason our discussion here focuses primarily on drive states, which are the outcome of homeostatic processes related to hunger, thirst, and temperature regulation. Drive states are characterized by tension and discomfort due to a physiological need followed by relief when the need is satisfied.

It is important to recognize, however, that drive states are merely one subtype, perhaps the simplest examples, of the motivational states that direct behavior. In general, motivational states may be broadly classified into two types: (1) elementary drive states and more complex physiological regulatory forces brought into play by alterations in internal physical conditions "



It appears that when we look at what motivation really is... we learn more about morality as motivation is a driving force of what creates the conditions of morality. What motivates can often even change our morality. You wouldn't steal would you? What if you were starving and thought you might die without that food.. then would you steal? Ofcourse you would. In the interest of your own survival the conscious sense of free will must be supressed inorder to ensure the homeostasis of the body. This is an example of geneticly programmed functions of the brain. Your free will... expires when you are struggling to survive. An example of this is soldiers in war. They will often abandon their morals to find a sense of security out of the fear of death. Which means there actions are more or less instinctive to unconscious thought. When they tell you they weren't themselves.. they literally mean it.

Survival instincts are the motivations behind morality as stated above. Therefore, I can see where in times when you feel that your life is in danger.. you do not have as much free will as times when you are relaxed.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

I'm very sorry if my less than perfect English means you will not consider the point I was driving at, even though you seem to be able to read and comprehend it. This is, of course, a very good reason for disregarding an idea.

On the topic of English, 'Retardation' is awfully strong word to be used by someone who's 'ego is se cure regardless of judgement'.

But that is just the problem Zenemy - You may remember that I apologised for the length of my first post, and these weren't empty words. The point of a forum such as this is to facilitate discussion, and when one person speaks for far longer than the other, real conversation is impossible.

But you have not only spewed a response of ungodly length, not only broken it up with long, technical quotations, but crucially, JUMPED from topic to topic, often in the same paragraph, covering morality, will, jabs at Dr. Robert and brain talk at a dizzying pace.

Thus a remotely extensive reply, responding to all your points, questioning what you mean by certain terms, etc AND putting forward my own point of view on all these topics, would take an entire day or longer.

As I visit this forum for fun, I won't do this. I don't know if this is a concious effort on your part, or that you are so unwell that you naturally come across as so aggressive and convoluted, but I no longer care to engage.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

James
Dragontongue,

If you were trying to make rape virtuous, I think you'd need to flesh out your example a little bit, but you seem to get the idea.

Okay, cool. :) Thanks!

Zenemy
It appears that when we look at what motivation really is... we learn more about morality as motivation is a driving force of what creates the conditions of morality. What motivates can often even change our morality. You wouldn't steal would you? What if you were starving and thought you might die without that food.. then would you steal? Ofcourse you would. In the interest of your own survival the conscious sense of free will must be supressed inorder to ensure the homeostasis of the body. This is an example of geneticly programmed functions of the brain. Your free will... expires when you are struggling to survive. An example of this is soldiers in war. They will often abandon their morals to find a sense of security out of the fear of death. Which means there actions are more or less instinctive to unconscious thought. When they tell you they weren't themselves.. they literally mean it.

Survival instincts are the motivations behind morality as stated above. Therefore, I can see where in times when you feel that your life is in danger.. you do not have as much free will as times when you are relaxed.

So when your life isn't in immediate danger, you can think about the survival of your genes, but when it is you can only think about your own personal survival? That would make sense to me if it weren't for the fact that most people will die for their children. It seems to me that since morality is determined by what aids us in passing along our genes, it's only natural that sometimes certain morals have to be put aside. To use your example, stealing makes you untrustworthy (and less likely to attract a mate), so in a normal situation you wouldn't steal. If, however, you would die if you didn't steal some food (thereby ruining your chances of perpetuating your genes), of course you would steal it. Even more so if you had offspring to feed. I don't think it's so much that you lose some free will when your life is in danger as it is that you never really have it to begin with.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

This thread is going to places. I like it. /popcorn
EDIT: Dragontongue. I don't know where you get this "most people would die for their children" crap from. Only those that never have or never will make that choice would say that. Considering the amount of human trafficking in the world, your assertion is wrong. Unless you are somehow under the impression that it's not their parents that sell their children to be prostitutes?

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Hexi
Dragontongue. I don't know where you get this "most people would die for their children" crap from. Only those that never have or never will make that choice would say that. Considering the amount of human trafficking in the world, your assertion is wrong. Unless you are somehow under the impression that it's not their parents that sell their children to be prostitutes?

Uh. Wow. Come to think of it, I don't even know. Good point. Obviously I need to examine my assumptions a lot more. :P Thanks for pointing that out.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Dragontongue

Uh. Wow. Come to think of it, I don't even know. Good point. Obviously I need to examine my assumptions a lot more. :P Thanks for pointing that out.


Stop watching movies with dramatic sacrifices made by parents for their childrend, it's not real. :P

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Hexi
Dragontongue

Uh. Wow. Come to think of it, I don't even know. Good point. Obviously I need to examine my assumptions a lot more. :P Thanks for pointing that out.


Stop watching movies with dramatic sacrifices made by parents for their childrend, it's not real. :P


You mean like that Batman movie where the Joker gives the detonator to the RICH and Judgemental yet they don't blow up the prisoner boat and vice versa? Yeah, that unrealistic crap is repulsive. In the heat of the moment a persons instincts to survive would override any rationality and.. they would hand the detonator to me.

I'd do it. Then again I'd do it as well if I didn't get in trouble for it. Who wouldn't blow up a boat of strangers you don't care about anyway? Oh yeah.. movie directors.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

I usually just read and seldom write, but here goes.

Zemeny's posts were really off the mark in so many ways. For one thing he took Railton's article as if it was the work of Dr. Robert, but of course it wasn't. Dr. Robert didn't write it or even vouch for it. He only posted it and asked forum members to comment on it. All of a sudden Zemeny claims disillusionment and tells the doctor, "Dr. Robert, have you applied the laws of neuroscience in any way to your psychology theories? Can you give me specific locations of the brain that are in control of said emotional reactions or show me the process from which you base your information?" Where is that coming from.
Then when the doctor gives him two links to neurological observations that back up the doc's ideas Zenemy just ignores it and goes on with his jabber.

Zenemy comes off pretty dense really. He is stuck on thinking that if certain parts of the brain are "in control" of certain emotions then knowing more about those parts of the brain will somehow help the individual to understand and deal with emotions. That may be true to some extent, but certainly will be only a part of the picture, and probably a pretty small one. The idea that by knowing more about the neurological organization of the brain humans eventually will come to understand their emotions, their values, their lives, their entire being, is called reductionism. The various comments were right. Intelligent people avoid reductionism and putting all their eggs in one basket. Zenemy I am sure has read all those comments but has found a way to shoot holes in them. He is smart enough to shoot but not smart enough to know how little he really knows as was said by others.

Zay did the same thing in imagining that the doctor wrote the Railton piece: "I find comfort in your words. You just unknowingly defined the difference between the love for a spouse and the love we have for our children, etc., etc., etc. . . I may have theorized much off your statement but that research creates such possibilities. I don't think it will be as great as you think though. If nothing else you have just justified racisum, war, denounced religion as a WHOLE (which is exactly what the catholic church feared Science would do), and many other aspects of human civilization.

Question: does psychopathy somehow stimulate the part of the brain that likes to rant and rave without ever really listening to anyone else? I thought that was narcissism.

Doc, you are doing yeoman work out here. More power to you.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Almost spooky. After posting yesterday I see this in today's New York Times:

July 25, 2010, 5:26 pm
The Limits of the Coded World
By WILLIAM EGGINTON

In an influential article in the Annual Review of Neuroscience, Joshua Gold of the University of Pennsylvania and Michael Shadlen of the University of Washington sum up experiments aimed at discovering the neural basis of decision-making. In one set of experiments, researchers attached sensors to the parts of monkeys’ brains responsible for visual pattern recognition. The monkeys were then taught to respond to a cue by choosing to look at one of two patterns. Computers reading the sensors were able to register the decision a fraction of a second before the monkeys’ eyes turned to the pattern. As the monkeys were not deliberating, but rather reacting to visual stimuli, researchers were able to plausibly claim that the computer could successfully predict the monkeys’ reaction. In other words, the computer was reading the monkeys’ minds and knew before they did what their decision would be.

The implications are immediate. If researchers can in theory predict what human beings will decide before they themselves know it, what is left of the notion of human freedom? How can we say that humans are free in any meaningful way if others can know what their decisions will be before they themselves make them?

How is that for some scientific evidence, Zenemy?

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

famfav5
How is that for some scientific evidence, Zenemy?


It won't mean anything to him. It seems as if he has decided his new role will be to play the forum's resident troll. He wants to be inflammatory for the sake of being inflammatory. I know people who do that IRL and I don't get them either. I don't grok the need for attention I guess.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

I guess you are right, Daniel. I am always puzzled by people who believe they are more intelligent than the rest of us, but in fact have no insight, and no understanding of anyone else either. Do you think this is a common feature of psychopathy? I am wondering if the lack of emotional connection could cause such people who begin to lose it narcissistically to be so out of touch with others that there is no road back, whereas a "normal" could be guilted or shamed into seeing his own intellectual weaknesses. Several people have pointed out to Zenemy that he totally ignored the doc's citation of evidence and that that was intellectual dishonesty. Do you really mean that he won't get that at all? Won't even question it within himself? Or in your opinion is it more likely that he will get it, and will question himself about it, but would never admit it to anyone else?

I followed the long dialog you had with the doc, and loved it. You say you lack emotional connection, yet you seemed to be able to modify your views in response to the doc, just as he listened and responded to you. What makes that impossible for Zenemy or Zay? I am curious about this. More than curious. It seems central to the entire question of morality.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

famfav5
I am always puzzled by people who believe they are more intelligent than the rest of us, but in fact have no insight, and no understanding of anyone else either. Do you think this is a common feature of psychopathy?


I don't know. I have read in several places that psychopaths are not supposed to have any kind of insight. I find that a somewhat dubious proposition though. I think what they really mean is that psychopaths don't agree with society at large about moral reasoning, which is not the same thing as being entirely without insight.

Do you really mean that he won't get that at all?


No, I mean that he doesn't care. I am going to be generous and assume he can grok it. He just doesn't care to say that he does since that is not his agenda.

Then again you could be right about that inability to comprehend idea. Some of the comments I have read seem to indicate a lack of ability to see connections between even ideas. Sometimes it is just a language barrier. Other times though, I think it's more. Interesting...

As for your suggestion that guilt might be helpful to someone realizing their errors in reasoning, I think intellectual honesty is more efficacious. At least, it has been for me. Then again, I don't do the guilt thing so I'm not the best one to ask.

I followed the long dialog you had with the doc, and loved it. You say you lack emotional connection, yet you seemed to be able to modify your views in response to the doc, just as he listened and responded to you & It seems central to the entire question of morality.


Really? You see it as central? Hmm. I do not see the connection between intellectual honesty, comprehension ability and morality. Explain what you mean please.

As for my response to the good doctor in that particular conversation, when I comment as Daniel Birdick I make it a point to try to have decent online conversations. A decent conversation means, to me anyway, exchanging views clearly, without needless rancor or childishly disrespecting the other person. Of course, you will find examples on other forums (sociopathworld.com) where I am rude and caustic. No one is perfect. Still on average, I keep it clean. Intellectual honesty "compels" me to shift a belief if reason and evidence indicate it. I do not need to have an emotional connection to have a decent conversation or to be intellectually honest with myself.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Thanks for posting that article, famfav5. I read the whole piece, and was struck by the support it contains for the thinking I developed independently some time ago and have been trying to explain to my critics in this thread. They seem to feel that my explanation was an effort somehow to justify myself, but that was not my intention at all, nor is it the point. The point of my posts here was to explore the well-springs of morality with the intelligent readers here. I am saddened that some people here would rather snipe disrespectfully than to converse seriously and with good intentions. I see that as the sign of a small mind, regardless of psychological tendencies.


To quote further from the article:

"(1) You do what you do — in the circumstances in which you find yourself—because of the way you then are.

(2) So if you’re going to be ultimately responsible for what you do, you’re going to have to be ultimately responsible for the way you are — at least in certain mental respects.

(3) But you can’t be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all.

(4) So you can’t be ultimately responsible for what you do.

The key move is (3). Why can’t you be ultimately responsible for the way you are in any respect at all? In answer, consider an expanded version of the argument.

(a) It’s undeniable that the way you are initially is a result of your genetic inheritance and early experience.

(b) It’s undeniable that these are things for which you can’t be held to be in any way responsible (morally or otherwise).

(c) But you can’t at any later stage of life hope to acquire true or ultimate moral responsibility for the way you are by trying to change the way you already are as a result of genetic inheritance and previous experience.

(d) Why not? Because both the particular ways in which you try to change yourself, and the amount of success you have when trying to change yourself, will be determined by how you already are as a result of your genetic inheritance and previous experience.

(e) And any further changes that you may become able to bring about after you have brought about certain initial changes will in turn be determined, via the initial changes, by your genetic inheritance and previous experience."

That pretty much covers it, I think, and if Zay or Zenemy don't want to see it, that unthinking resistance says a lot I think.

I reply to your question about narcissism and psychopathy: As I wrote in another thread, there is a current theory that psychopathy is a particularly strong form of narcissism. I doubt this. My idea, as you know, is that what we call "psychopathy" really isn't a "pathy" at all, but a normal human personality variant. Narcissism, on the other hand, I do consider pathology, although in contemporary Western culture it is beginning to seem almost normal since so many suffer from it--and make the rest of us to suffer them.

I do like your idea, however, that a psychopath, since he cannot be moved emotionally and seems not to require much connection to others, might be more easily lost in narcissism, and have no road back from it, than a so-called "normal." That may be. Recent posts in this thread seem to back up your idea.

Daniel, I am sorry that the original idea of the thread seems to have been lost. As Hexi said, it was just getting good (although I don't think he meant it in the way that I do). Perhaps you would like to start a new one on morality in one form or another.

Be well.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Philosophy.. it is where psychology was risen from and you can see the influence. Just as philosophy rambles on and on about how the world is flat oh but then round and then there are witches but then there are none.

Philosophy.. the story of mankind but rest assured.. in the world of science.. we do not blindly go into the night. We do not trust some Catholic wise man to tell us how the mysteries of the world work..

because we have no faith...

We are scientists.. we are the logical minds of the world... we seek TRUE wisdom. Because we have seen where the darkness of unenlightened thinking has taken societies and we do not want to join them in oblivion.

All nations rise and fall. Only through science can we really know why.. why the world is the way it is. It was science that told us the Earth isn't flat, witches aren't real, and the color of a persons skin does not define them as an individual.

Science brings light to the darkness. I have offered you all wisdom and in it's light you all screamed and cried but you all did nothing. ou all said nothing. You whine that I do not examine your points of view yet you seek me to look for your information. No, if you have an arguement you will display it to me. You will not ask me to go look it up. As I do not ask you to look it up. i bring the facts to you.

Which is where we stand. I have brought the facts to you. What have you brought me in turn?

WORDS....

Words.. just like the Bible had words. You know why you only bring words and minor demeaning statements? Your egos are damaged... threatened by an undeniable truth. I have shaken the very foundation from which you stand because while Dr Robert will stimulate your egos.. I will not.

And my actions are only an amplification of the feelings Hexi has, We know you have nothing but words. As scientists I laugh at you. Look at your lack of knowledge towards the psychopath.

Their opinions of the psychopath are constantly evolving ideas and no more. In scientific terms.. there is no disorder in the mind of a psychopath. There is no dysfunction. A lose of consciousness is not considered a mental illness but is rather considered to be a mental deficiency of emotion.

All these psychopaths that psychology studies.. are in ******* PRISONS!!! I don't know about any of you but doesn't it seem rather odd that we have no other psychopaths to study? Better yet. why aren't you all asking these questions? Where are all these psychopaths that aren't being detected?! Maybe they are living more functional lives.. maybe they are more intelligent than prison idiots.

In scientific terms.. the test are all biased. The problem is.. psychologists cannot naturally locate psychopaths unless they are caught.

Anytime I can lie to your face and you have no way in your field of proving I'm a liar... you have no real science and I will not measure you to be anything more than you are until you validate reason for change.. but you can't and we both know that because any arguement you make that comes in conflict of neuroscience is not true.

You are a person of changing faith. I am a person of logic. I don't take comfort in feelings. I take comfort in knowledge. So when I see everyones egos scream and whine under the crushing power that is my reality... I am validated.

Further you really can't continue this.. joke. You forget that it is not me you are arguing against.. it's Harvard and the entire medical field. Fools.. you have not challenged anything more than the very cream of societies crop.

So.. that doctor that saved your family members life.. he practices my science. That preacher/philosopher/psychologist who makes you spiritually feel better but doesn't explain why your son is dying of aids.. he's not a real scientist. He just wants your ego to find him appealing so you will listen to his ideas that are unsupported.

This is all nothing more than a scientific experiment to me. Take a bunch of brainwashed egos and expose them to reality. Do they maintain brainwashing as designed upon their egos or do they reconsider?

Results...

They maintain brainwashing. While at the same time.. the psychopath remains vigilantly aware and does not fall into the manipulative traps that egos would submit to naturally.

It's always funnier to do psychological tricks to people who study psychology. It just shows you how inferior the ego really is. how quickly it is deceieved and fooled into submission.

Look at all of you sad little egos. All of you upset by my words.. no doubt many of you coming back time and again to see what has happened next.. what has been going on. I assume that though.. i assume it because egos crave conflict. People who wouldn't normal say anything.. will rise and say much when threatened but not when introduced to positive stimuli.

You all supported neuroscience through your actions.. do you get it now... oysters. I can explain to you why... actually I already have. It's a function of your autonomic nervous system.. which is often refereed to here as your subconscious or unconscious but really it does.. a lot more.

I'm not a psychopath you ignorant fool. I am a normal person who suffered brain trauma. Which means that while I do have a conscious.. my emotions are short lived, unlike a psychopath that has no feelings at all. however, outwardly appearing.. you might think i was a psychopath. Fortunately, THE MEDICAL FIELD OF SCIENCE has proven otherwise.

You can actually live with a depleted sense of consciousness. You don't become a mindless drone with no feelings either. But consider this...

Imagine you didn't know that. Imagine science never proved it. That would mean that if a person suffered coma and then came out and you didn't understand what was going on.. you would think they have become a cold blooded psychopath.

If you were religious you might think they were possessed by a demon and all the time you think this of that person.. they feel it when you say it. but they don't feel it very long. Nevertheless.. it hurts.. So maybe they start becoming like a psychopath.. maybe they start losing their connection.

But do you know why? Cause other people rejected them for being different. All the time.. this person has feelings just like everyone else but without science.. you wouldn't know that.

**** on what you think you know. **** on your deception. **** on your dark ways of thinking. I find comfort in science.. it does not guess but rather knows what is going on and if science does not know.. they tell you they don't know. They tell you they have theories but.. they don't know for a fact BECAUSE.. unlike Fox News, Preachers, philosophy, Psychology ect ect.. Science does not leave anything to question. Science is a collection of facts and as more facts are added.. more knowledge is obtained and the more we know about hw the brain works.. the more we can enlighten the world from darkness that is ignorant thinking.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Zemeny,

Dr. Robert was right about at least one thing. You are intellectually quite dishonest which is the sign of a second rate mind at best. After asking him to offer some scientific evidence for his idea and then implying that he had none and was just making stuff up, you completely ignored the evidence he did offer you. Never commented on it, never even acknowledged it. I took a look at it, and it does seem to support his idea, and these were neurological experiments with MRI's of brains and all that.

I know your game, I have played your game, I see your game, and it's a loser called I'm Always Right. No wonder the doc cut you off. You deserved it.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

I agree ROR and it's even worse that that because all of the guy's words adds up to nothing. Not that the experiments might not have been interesting but the idea that physical impairment of the brain can cause changes in consciousness is obvious and proves little which has not been known for decades or even centuries. Yes I guess that zeroing in on the actual cells responsibile is interesting in its way, but has nothing to do with what the Doc or James were talking about. Zenemy is one of those guys whose estimation of his own intellect is way out of line with what he really comes up with and he is blind to it because he is all ego and nothing else. I watched some of the truly bright people on this forum like Daniel debate things with the Doctor and those were good discussions because there was respect and listening on both sides and the Doctor is super bright and well informed and doesn't mind sharing ideas. This guy Zemeny doesn't know what he is talking about and is afraid to face up to being in a group of people like James and the Doctor who do know a thing or two. So he just ignores what they say and goes on raving.

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

Riddle me this, smart people. What does all of the preceeding discussing mean for morality's ontological status, in your opinion?

Re: Moral Camouflage or Moral Monkeys?

IMO,

Morality ultimately resides in the ideas and behaviour of humans (assume that there are no smart, ethical aliens for the moment).

Thus, if there were no humans, morality wouldn't be.

However, we seem to have developed it for beneficial evolutionary reasons. I'd wager that for any animal broadly similar to us, something like morality and group dynamics would develop.

Of course, one can't know this, there's loads of good sci-fi built on this not being the case, but in the same way the complex eye replicates itself again and again in nature, in multifacetedd ways, in drastically different creatures. Consider how different an insect, octopod and mammalian eye are. But having an eye confers such an advantage on a planet such as this, so these diverse animals all have them.

So it's as if we can say, that for a certain type of animal, in X, Y and Z conditions, its a FACT that an eye is advantages.

It's an odd thing, a fact like this. What's its ontological status? It is supervenient on more fundamental rules of nature. If there were no planets in the universe, as there weren't in it's early history, then in a sense there was no geography. Yet as soon as planet begin to form, they do so in certain consistent and rationally comprehendible ways, and we have geography, with geographical facts. Geography exists, factually, but only when there are bodies to which it applies

In the same way, morality exists, when there are moral agents (not that I believe they have agency). Language exists only when there are those that can speak it, yet linguistics can be considered a science, with its own OBJECTIVE facts (basics structures of all human grammar and so on).

So is morality objective, actually existing? Yes, but supervening on other natural facts, and laws.

As to what the natural law, physics, reality that these things are derived from really are, ontologically speaking... It's late, I just finished a shift and that's a long pitch. My monism is getting the best of me.

What I've written is very skatty, but hopefully I gave some sort of idea. I'll update when I can if it interests you. And I need to read that article. and pick up on some of FamFive's points.