If you believe the Bible, you would now that it doesn't teach dying, then going to heaven, does it?

One can make a pretty strong argument based on Luke 16 that one does go either to hell or to heaven upon death.

I am not disputing the existence of heaven, or hell.

The Bible teaches that when people die, they're dead, Ashes to ashes - dust to dust.
Back to the earth, were we came from.
Then on the day of judgement we are judged, the decision is made to whether we stay forever in gods kingdom, or we die, the "second death" dead forever.

Heaven is Gods domain. We don't enter, and we never shall. Gods "kingdom upon earth" is were we will be allowed to live if we are judged as worthy of living there.

Remember John, Matthew, Luke etc. were only people.

Ah, you missed my point. I know you are not disputing the existence of heaven or hell.

Indulge me, briefly. I know this is not the place for a theological debate.

Oh, and, I am not trying to dissuade you from your interpretations, Toby. I'm just pointing out that a case can be made, using scripture itself, for a very real heaven in some place other than here to which we go at death.


19There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

One can craft a very solid argument from this passage which is told from the perspective of Luke, who heard Christ speak these words, that heaven and hell are very real places where one goes upon death. That the judgement is not a single point in time at which all mankind is judged but rather that each individual is judged at the point of death. When his soul is freed from his earthly prison, it is adjudicated, and sent to one or the other place.

Further on in the book of Luke, when Christ is dieing on the cross, he tells the dieing sinner crucified next to him that he will join him in heaven (or paradise) that day.

Of course, the beauty of it is, it doesn't matter where or when heaven is. The point is to be prepared to go there, no?

John 11:11-14; Deuteronomy 31:16; Job 7:21; Job 14:12; Jeremiah 51:39; Daniel 12:2.

They label death as a "sleep" and upon Jesus' return, we shall all be woken from our slumber at either the first or second resurrection according to how we lived prior to 'death' :D
It's not my particular interpretation, it's what it says. It's the one thing all Christian branches can agree on.
A 'sleep like' death
Resurrection on the 'Day of Judgement'
Then either permanently dying the "second death"
OR Living in the 'Kingdom of God upon Earth'
Everything above is directly from the Bible, there is no 'heaven' or 'hell' that you're sent to straight after death, that's explicitly mentioned nowhere. Sure you can point out the word 'hell' in every book of the bible, but the greek word 'hades' means dump, and the 'dump' is the second death. A HUGE misinterpretation.

But, if that is what you choose to believe, then that's fine, who am I to say it's right or wrong. :)

What I believe doesn't matter (especially since I don't hold a particularly Christian view of death).

My point is only that there are other ways to interpret, from the Christian perspective, what the Bible says about death and the hereafter. By the way, there are several Christian branches, the Church of Christ comes to mind, who do say judgement is at the point of death and not at some point in the future once everyone has died or is consumed by the "end of time" event.

Luke seems pretty explicit about it, to me.

Further, one could argue that the resurrection mentioned in the Old Testament is not the same as the one covered by the New Testament. All of the Old Testament deals with God's relationship with the nation of Israel. The Gospels, too, deal primarily with Israel - setting aside the old covenant and welcoming a new one. It is not until Paul's writings that we see the expanded message to all of mankind (the Gentiles) and not just with Israel. (See I Thessalonians if you are interested in some of his writing on resurrection.)

Further, further, furthermore the word Hell in the New Testament is not always a translation of the word Hades. Several times it is from the word Gehenna, which is the Greek word for hell - an eternal place of punishment.

Further, furthermore, hell in the Old Testament is typically not, if ever actually, from the Greek but from the Hebrew word sheol, which translates to hell, death, or pit and is the place all souls go after death, with two sides - paradise and a place of torment for the lost. The Hebrew tradition, or at least those sects of it which believe in the idea of resurrection at all, says that souls go directly to Sheol upon death where they wait a resurrection. They are judged at the point of death - sent to one side or the other of sheol, and they are consciously aware while they wait, as in not just dead in the ground with no awareness.

I do not want to poke at your faith. It is a good and excellent pursuit.

Oh, I know that feeling. So that's the Void?

If it was just a chemical reaction within the brain which your conscious falsely interpreted as heaven ... why hate them for it?

What is the purpose of life? To live good? To be well? To treat others with kindness? ...pick whatever works but at the end you're supposed to die. I don't think death is the end. I could be wrong but I'm not worried about it. Eventually I will die regardless.

Why do you think antisocial lives up to it's name. We hate you. So different from us that you are aliens or rather we are. The only real difference is conscience? And thats just too much for your kind to accept.

Watch planet of the apes. It'll give you a better perception.

Do you know why I want to die? Cause I just know I am forsaken to live a longer life and death is not coming for me. You have to stare death down a few times before it sinks in. So I looked for a purpose in life or several purposes. I studied the knowledge of different cultures and took from them certain aspects and intergrated them into myself. I am without a preset conscience. I can become anyone I choose. It's just acting and absorbing the role.

The goal is to forfill my purposes and hopefully die right after. Earth is a prison. Existance without purpose is punishment.

I don't think some people get the real feeling of the Void. You can't disconnect your conscience. Not that I've seen. But if you didn't have a conscience... all that is left is... purpose. To not even have that is to have less than nothing. That knowledge is the deep seeded pain all these psycho doctors are always talking about.

Perhaps in Hexi search for wisdom he can find his purpose.

Do you think giving a depressed person a good purpose to live would help them recover from depression quicker?

Website: www.myspace.com/zwhitewolf

My kind? Your kind? Get over yourself, kid.




So if I mimic planet of the apes and the halloween movies, I'll know how to impersonate a psychopath on the internet? *rolls eyes*

So can anyone else on the face of the planet. Life is choice. We're all of us masters of our own fate, designers of our own destinies. Sure, some people are not as skilled at the whole process as others, but, ultimately, the choice to be lies within each person.

Whitewolf

The goal is to forfill my purposes and hopefully die right after. Earth is a prison. Existance without purpose is punishment.

So which is it? You have no purpose or your purpose is to use people? Make up your mind.

Whitewolf

I don't think some people get the real feeling of the Void. You can't disconnect your conscience. Not that I've seen. But if you didn't have a conscience... all that is left is... purpose. To not even have that is to have less than nothing. That knowledge is the deep seeded pain all these psycho doctors are always talking about.



Perhaps in Hexi search for wisdom he can find his purpose.



Do you think giving a depressed person a good purpose to live would help them recover from depression quicker?

I don't think you can give a person purpose. That is something you give yourself.

Website

Apr 30th, 2010 - 3:46 PM

Why?
I thought you 'lacked the capacity to hold onto hate'?

Anyways, I'm confused, do you believe you have Antisocial Personality Disorder, Psychopathy or Sociopathy?

The one time I reply to unknown and all he does is look for ways to misinterput and be an ass. ..but you know what... He wouldn't say it to my face. I remember that when I chat with people. For all the crap they talk they don't really do much. Just little annoying dogs.


Toby, people like Unknown are the ones we hate. People who just pop up and think they can talk to you and judge you. Subject you to their ignorant ideals. Who is he to me? I concern myself more with what you think than a total stranger. Seriously, if this was fudil Japan and I was a samuri... I could totally cut him down in public and it would be compltely acceptable. Or if this was the wild west... I could just shoot him. All these times in history when cowards were not safe. Great times as history looked over their voices. Now.. Pfff.

Website: www.myspace.com/zwhitewolf

ROFLMAO Awwww did I hurt your feelings? Did you cry? Clearly, you've not bothered to read the majority of my posts. And, Sweetheart, I would not say anything to you here that I would not say to your face. I eat little boys like you for lunch.

You post delusional rants or childish gibberish - I really can't tell which.

Are you trying to learn anything about yourself or about others? I doubt it. Nothing about anything you post is real.

This forum is a very generous gift from the doctor to all people. If you don't want the gift, don't take it, but there's certainly no reason to **** on it.

Post or don't post. I couldn't care less. I don't believe you exist.

Dr. Robert, I apologize profusely. I have been impolite in your "home."

Are you saying that your concerned what I think?
Yay. :-)



You really hate small dogs, don't you? :D

Don't we all hate small dogs? Not all of them. Just those annoying ones that always bark. It's fun to put them in boxes and leave them there. :-)

Website: www.myspace.com/zwhitewolf

My god, yes. The small yappy ones are the worst, they are so irritating!



You're awful! :)


That's why I favor cats, they can't bark, they can only meow and when they do that's just cute, no matter how much they do it to try and annoy you. :D

I was thinking the other day, a good occupation for a psychopath, a judge! Right? They wouldn't let emotions get in the way of proccedings and stuff. (I'm not trying to restart psychopathic topics, I was merely saying) :)

I'm sure there are a few. Of 6 billion people 1% is 60 million. All those psychopaths and so few serial killers.



I tricked my best friend into getting in a chicken coop as a kid. Then locked him in it.

Website: www.myspace.com/zwhitewolf

I wonder, how'd he get out?

...I let him out. You don't lock your friend in a coop and leave him there. Thats not proper at all.

Website: www.myspace.com/zwhitewolf

How long did he spend in there? :P

"That's not proper at all"!? It's not proper to lock him in a coop in the first place! :)

No, a proper thing would have been to set the coop on fire. (a joke)

Well.. it seemed like the right thing to do.

I washed my aunts dog in gasoline as a child. That dog hated me till the end of time. Then he thought my uncle was me and hated him.

Gas is the ultimate pyro fuel. I love watching it burn or igniting fumes and watching the explosion. Drifting again...

Anyway gotta go check on a friend. His wife took their two kids and left him yesterday. Kids shouldn't marry.

Website: www.myspace.com/zwhitewolf

I misread that. I thought you said you washed the dog in petrol and then burned it... That would've been evil.

You should've taken the coop (if it was moveable) and put it in a stream. :)
Anyway, enough with the ways to kill coop-stuck children. :D

So, you're an alien. Which galaxy, what planet are you from?




*yawn*

Sorry, I just don't hear anything at all when you speak.

Ok. We could call it (I am assuming you are referring to my understanding of consciousness) awareness. Or we could call it nothing, as no-thing. But I think you are defining consciousness differently than I am. You are, if I have it right, referring to thoughts, beliefs, ideas, opinions, emotions, etc as consciousness. Right or no? If I am right about what you are saying, then no, I am not referring to any of that. That is what I would call the contents of consciousness, which indeed are always changing. I am referring to something more fundamental than that. Literally, the am in I am.



On the most basic level of analysis, free will is indeed an illusion. It has been my observation that there is no doer who has free will to exercise. On the other hand, on a more conventional level, we can speak of a person who makes choices and decisions and acts.



If you don’t mind, say more about this please. I don’t quite get what you are saying here.

Eep, i'm about to head out so i can't get into this now. I'm positive uknown knows what i mean though.

Ah. I can say that. I am. I will consider if it is enough just to be. Intellectually, this suffices. I am. And there is no blank to fill in. Just. I am.

And on an existential level, this response resonates with me. I would describe existence similarly. I guess I'm hung up on having an identity. What you describe as consciousness, I have always described as soul. That thing which makes you uniquely you, that exists before you and persists after you. Consciousness is a better word than soul, maybe. I think there is some a priori knowledge that connects each of us with the sum total of human consciousness since the dawn of time until the end of it, and it is this a priori collective consciousness that man continually and habitually defines as some deity or another.

Ick. Major digression. Sorry.

This I understand all too well. Virtually everyone is hung up on this. What makes you different is that you see the falseness of it, while most others are firmly committed to believing in it with all their might. It’s their true religion.



Yeah, it’s the place where everyone is literally one. Well, it is the place where oneness begins.

It is so… fundamental. I can’t think of a better word. It’s like asking, who were you before you were born? What is it that is within you that has remained the same throughout childhood, adolescence, young adulthood, becoming a parent, and so on.



LOL! It’s your thread, no? :-)