Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
We don't just do the right thing to avoid punishment, we do the right thing to acheive the good feelings.
We do the right thing because theres nothing more rewarding than knowing you've helped someone in need or that you've been truly altruistic.
Okay, so it's not just the stick, you've also got the carrot. Hang on, let me see if I've got this straight... if I do something wrong, bad consequences will usually follow naturally. If I do something right, I usually get good consequences. That's probably the same for everybody. So empaths have an extra set of consequences, then--emotional ones. I suppose that would even things out... make you do the right thing even if the naturally occurring consequences aren't all that good? I can see how that would make life easier for the people around you, even if it was harder for you.
Basically we create our own set of morals, and those morals are enforced by our conscience. It's what keeps Emapths in 'social harmony'.
But wait, in order for that to work, wouldn't all empaths have to create more or less identical sets of morals? You couldn't have social harmony if, for example, my morals say it's okay to borrow things without asking and yours say you should always ask, could you?
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
So empaths have an extra set of consequences, then--emotional ones. I suppose that would even things out... make you do the right thing even if the naturally occurring consequences aren't all that good? I can see how that would make life easier for the people around you, even if it was harder
Yes, we have emotional consequences. We hate to see people down and upset, we enjoy seeing them happy and joyful.
But wait, in order for that to work, wouldn't all empaths have to create more or less identical sets of morals? You couldn't have social harmony if, for example, my morals say it's okay to borrow things without asking and yours say you should always ask, could you?
If our consciences and emotions didn't keep us in social harmony, walking down the street people would be rioting, fighting, stabbing eachother, stealing, murdering, raping etc.
And it's funny, because that was the one thing I said that was completely quoted...
"What is missing, in other words, are the very qualities that allow a human being to live in social harmony"
Psychopaths lack the qualities that allow them to live in social harmony, hence them having no problem killing, etc.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
If our consciences and emotions didn't keep us in social harmony, walking down the street people would be rioting, fighting, stabbing eachother, stealing, murdering, raping etc.
Yeah, I see that. It would seem that all empaths do have more or less identical sets of morals. I just don't really understand why. Could you explain?
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Could you explain?
If I'm honest I could steal something that's not mine and not feel much guilt at all where as most people do. I don't know why, I just don't feel guilt. But, I don't go around stealing myself because I understand how much upset would be inflicted upon the owner, and do not wish to cause such hurt.
I could never murder or anything in those realms. I would probably be destroyed by the guilt and end up killing myself.
I just look at certain acts and lable them 'bad' or 'good'. I don't know why or how I came to have those views, but I do. And they're something I've had since I can remember, and that's the same with most empaths.
I assume it's just a mix of Genetic factors, social norms and what my parents brought me up like.
If you hear of serial killers on the news, it's almost always
Bad Childhood
Abuse
Negelect
And that sort of thing. Alot of them don't have parent like figures to teach them what's right and wrong. But like I said, I could easily steal from shops, and not really care, or feel guilty whatsoever. I have no idea why, but I did use to steal quite a bit as a child, so maybe I got kind of desensitized to stealing. (That's the wrong kind of word, but the only one that fits)
The only few reasons I don't steal from shops are
because:
The Bible condemns stealing
I have A wife and kids (self explanatory)
I don't want to get caught. (It's an awful reason Lol)
It's got to just be completely huge mix of factors - genetic, social norms, parents, childhood peers, values etc.
Sorry I was so late on replying, it's on page 2 and I didn't see :)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
If I'm honest I could steal something that's not mine and not feel much guilt at all where as most people do. I don't know why, I just don't feel guilt. But, I don't go around stealing myself because I understand how much upset would be inflicted upon the owner, and do not wish to cause such hurt.
Okay, so... the discrepancies in sets of morals are smoothed over by the way that empaths feel for each other. That makes sense, thanks.
I don't want to get caught. (It's an awful reason Lol)
It seems like a perfectly good reason to me. Maybe not a particularly unselfish one.... :)
It's got to just be completely huge mix of factors - genetic, social norms, parents, childhood peers, values etc.
Hm. Okay. (I kind of thought you might say "God created humans with certain basic morals" or something like that.)
Sorry I was so late on replying, it's on page 2 and I didn't see :)
That's okay, I understand. :) In future, though, you could try using Recent Posts for things like this. That would probably work.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Maybe not a particularly unselfish one.... :)
You know, You could've just said it's selfish... ;)
Okay, so... the discrepancies in sets of morals are smoothed over by the way that empaths feel for each other.
I couldn't of worded that better myself. But, ofcourse, empaths can have consciences that don't work, Serial killers that are empaths can look into their conscience and not see anything wrong with the acts that they have or are commiting. But that's usually all down to abuse as a child, etc.
(I kind of thought you might say "God created humans with certain basic morals" or something like that.)
I am an odd sort of Christian, I don't say "God bless" on the end of all my posts, I think exorcisms are so laughable I nearly pee my pants when I see them on the TV.... :)
I do think that God created us and our minds and we have evolved over that time and the science behind our brains has kind of taken it from there... While most christians don't for some odd reason...
I also don't believe that psychopaths were sent from God to "get the weak" as if the Bible has taught us anything the weak are usually the best, or that's what I say to make myself feel better... ;)
And I don't believe God creates every one of us... I think that God created Adam/Eve and it went from there as the Bible teaches, but Whitewolf seems to think God spends his time moulding every one of us.... And thats proof that God makes psychopaths 'special' because he doesn't make mistakes... WTF? So God makes homosexuals the way they are? I expect you aren't really paying attention to much of this, I do go on... :)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
You know, You could've just said it's selfish... ;)
Well, it might not be selfish if you didn't want to get caught because... um... because... you didn't want people to have to pay money to maintain you in jail? (Eheheh...) Ah, no, you're right, it's selfish. :)
I am an odd sort of Christian, I don't say "God bless" on the end of all my posts, I think exorcisms are so laughable I nearly pee my pants when I see them on the TV.... :)
As long as you're the kind of Christian who reads the Bible and truly tries to live the way it says, matters of form are unimportant. I mean, you might do some of the things stereotypical Christians do, but you'd do them because you meant them, not as a matter of form.
I do think that God created us and our minds and we have evolved over that time and the science behind our brains has kind of taken it from there... While most christians don't for some odd reason...
Probably because they figure God would have made humans as they should be from the start; no evolution necessary to perfect God's creation. That does seem like the reasoning they would use, don't you think?
I also don't believe that psychopaths were sent from God to "get the weak" as if the Bible has taught us anything the weak are usually the best, or that's what I say to make myself feel better... ;)
Well, I don't know. It depends on what kind of weakness we're talking about. Physically weak people might tend to be stronger in some other area--spiritual, moral, that kind of thing--so being physically weak is probably not such a bad thing from a biblical perspective. Spiritual weakness, on the other hand.... Weaknesses in character are what psychopaths usually exploit, aren't they? 'Sent from God', though... *shrug* I dunno.
I expect you aren't really paying attention to much of this, I do go on... :)
No, I read it all. It's always interesting to get an insight into someone else's head.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Dragontongue
Ah, no, you're right, it's selfish. :)
That's more like it! :)
Dragontongue
As long as you're the kind of Christian who reads the Bible and truly tries to live the way it says, matters of form are unimportant.
I do read the bible. I actually converted to Christianity when I was 17 after I was bored and set myself the challenge to read the entire bible in 3 days and succeded. :)
DragonBalls
Probably because they figure God would have made humans as they should be from the start; no evolution necessary to perfect God's creation. That does seem like the reasoning they would use, don't you think?
I don't agree with that reasoning, but yes, It is the reasoning they'd use.
Dragontongue
Well, I don't know. It depends on what kind of weakness we're talking about. Physically weak people might tend to be stronger in some other area--spiritual, moral, that kind of thing--so being physically weak is probably not such a bad thing from a biblical perspective. Spiritual weakness, on the other hand.... Weaknesses in character are what psychopaths usually exploit, aren't they? 'Sent from God', though... *shrug* I dunno.
All types of weakness, mental, pyhsical, spirtual and moral.
So, If I may ask, what have you done that you aren't proud of? Ever exploited peoples weaknesses?
Dragontongue
No, I read it all. It's always interesting to get an insight into someone else's head.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
I do read the bible. I actually converted to Christianity when I was 17 after I was bored and set myself the challenge to read the entire bible in 3 days and succeded. :)
Last time you were 16 and it took you 2 days. Is there a reason for lying?
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Where did I say that? I must try and find that.
I was 16 and I set myself the challenge to read the Bible in 2 days, but read it in 3.
At the age of 17 about 3 weeks after I had read the Bible I converted to Christianity.
If I wanted to lie, I would tell you something more interesting than in exactly how many days I read the Bible, or what age I was...
I would say something like... I won the lottery... :)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
Where did I say that? I must try and find that.
I was 16 and I set myself the challenge to read the Bible in 2 days, but read it in 3.
At the age of 17 about 3 weeks after I had read the Bible I converted to Christianity.
If I wanted to lie, I would tell you something more interesting than in exactly how many days I read the Bible, or what age I was...
I would say something like... I won the lottery... :)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
So, If I may ask, what have you done that you aren't proud of? Ever exploited peoples weaknesses?
Of course I have! I like making people do what I want. I wouldn't say it's something I'm not proud of, though. It's interesting that you put those two questions together. (Not that it's not the sort of thing I'd expect, but it still jumps out at me.) It's like you're implying that I shouldn't be proud of exploiting peoples' weaknesses. Which I suppose you are. I won't answer the first question! :)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
"A psychopath may demonstrate flaky reasoning and fail to see evident holes in his logic."
That is alot of what I see here...
Or maybe you try to bring emotions to a place that is void of it, thus can't grasp the underlying logic? Also, which do you find more annoying? Imitators or narcissists? (here, have some "curve balls") :)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
Logic v Morality?
The majority of the world choose morality.
Right up untill no one is watching, to believe otherwise is delusional. I think morality is just something people claim to have to appear superior, to be "the bigger man". Take slavery for example. It wasn't morally wrong to have slaves in the day, untill it was. :) Society made slavery morally wrong.
EDIT: Which ties into conscience, which is have a fun theory about.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
You're wrong.
I have morality and I am not lying.
Morals are real, and I still have them when 'no one is watching'.
Plenty of people thought slavery was wrong, even when the majority of people didn't.
You create your own morals, and your conscience inforces them. What's terrible about that? Oh that's right, I am "not free" because I have a mechanism that enforces what I believe in, what I desegnate as 'right' or 'wrong'.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
You're wrong.
I have morality and I am not lying.
Morals are real, and I still have them when 'no one is watching'.
Plenty of people thought slavery was wrong, even when the majority of people didn't.
You create your own morals, and your conscience inforces them. What's terrible about that? Oh that's right, I am "not free" because I have a mechanism that enforces what I believe in, what I desegnate as 'right' or 'wrong'.
Ahh, but now you are getting to the meat of it. Conscience enforces your morals. Where do these morals come from? My opinion is that they come from your initial "caregiver" you had as a small child and your conscience tells you, subconsciously, when you're doing something that would make you feel embarrassed or this "caregiver" would think is wrong, if he/she would be there to watch you. Note that this caregiver does not nescessarily mean your parent(s), it might be anyone from your early childhood and thus societys morals evolve and change due to influence. That is also why primitive tribes don't evolve, the population is too seclusive for change to enter the picture thus new ideas rarely appear.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
I know where most of my morals come from, The Bible.
Divine Command.
So to me the phrase "charity is good" means exactly the same thing as phrases such as "God commands charity".
Go ahead, tell me I am brainwashed, that I have delegated the core part of how I live my life, but In the end, it's made me a better person, and only I know that.
It does, however, leave me with the Euthyphro dilemma - "Is an action morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is morally good?"
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
When did I find my faith?
I was bored. I decided to set myself the challenge of reading the entire Bible in two days, I did. And I admired it's teaching so much I decided to follow them; to convert to Christianity.
When?
At age 16.
I know (Or At least I think I do) what you're going to say... "You must of had morals before then..."
I did, and I can only guess where they came from...
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
Noone deserves to have their life taken from them, regardless of their past, or the acts they've commited.
That's just my opinion though...
So no, I woudldn't call you inhumane for holding that sort of opinion, I would call you free.
Have you ever stopped to think that a prison sentence is a worse sentence than death?
Inhumane thoughts can save humanity while humane thoughts can lead to it's destruction.
Emotionally, in Britain every time there is a cold-blooded murder public support for the death penalty rises, sometimes to 92%.
The same with me, I don't like to admit it, but when I heard that Eugène Terre'Blanche had been murdered I couldn't help but feel the world was a little safer.
I would call you inhumane if you were to kill someone, but not for having an opinion, albeit one I diagree with.
Logic v Morality?
The majority of the world choose morality.
I'm don't care about punishment. I'm all about prevention. I don't care to stop a killer from killing twice. Simply kill him and be done with that. You ever seen a real prison? You don't send people there to rehabilitated. You fool. Your punishment jet makes them worse people. Instead kill them and let their death be a demonstration of what happens to murderers.
Extreme consequences for extreme people.
I know the mind of a psychopath. You do not. I know what works and what doesn't. Punishment won't change the behaviors. Once somene goes bad you put them down.
Honestly, I don't believe democracies are capable of advancing society at a rapid rate because they lack long term leaders. But people can't be trusted with power. Look at the Queen of England. Some woman held up like a false idol.
I laugh at Toby. He worships a false idol and claims to be a christian. Cause thats what the Queen is.. a false idol. Sitting in your money and in your homes for you to worship. Taking focus away from your God and redirecting it to the crown.
Something I see clear as day. Something a brainwashed Brit could never get.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Whitewolf - Again, you're thinking in the mind of a Psychopath.
I don't know how it 'feels' but I can comprehend how your mind works. But you cannot do the same with us.
We have different opinions, they're both valuable. Done.
laugh at Toby. He worships a false idol and claims to be a christian. Cause thats what the Queen is.. a false idol. Sitting in your money and in your homes for you to worship. Taking focus away from your God and redirecting it to the crown.
Something I see clear as day. Something a brainwashed Brit could never get.
What the hell? You think I worship the Queen? You think I pray to or visit churches that worship the Queen?
I don't worship the Queen of England, I have pride in our monarchy, but I do not worship her.
"Sitting in money"? Yes, because the Queen is a billionaire. -_-
You aren't a Christian, nor are you British, so you cannot really make much of an informed decision, or even take an educated guess.
I'm sitting here laughing at your two uses of "worship" and your three uses of "false idol".
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Toby
Whitewolf - Again, you're thinking in the mind of a Psychopath.
I don't know how it 'feels' but I can comprehend how your mind works. But you cannot do the same with us.
We have different opinions, they're both valuable. Done.
laugh at Toby. He worships a false idol and claims to be a christian. Cause thats what the Queen is.. a false idol. Sitting in your money and in your homes for you to worship. Taking focus away from your God and redirecting it to the crown.
Something I see clear as day. Something a brainwashed Brit could never get.
What the hell? You think I worship the Queen? You think I pray to or visit churches that worship the Queen?
I don't worship the Queen of England, I have pride in our monarchy, but I do not worship her.
"Sitting in money"? Yes, because the Queen is a billionaire. -_-
You aren't a Christian, nor are you British, so you cannot really make much of an informed decision, or even take an educated guess.
I'm sitting here laughing at your two uses of "worship" and your three uses of "false idol".
I once asked Toby a question. If the Queen ordered you to kill 10,000 people... would you do it? He answered yes.
The Queen. A person of no significants yet lives like a God is percieved to. She is ruler over all she sees and everyone is her loyal subject. Because it's a great honor to have the queen even acknowledge your existance. Cause she is held up high. The British pride themselves on this. A Pride which is also a written sin.
If it takes great focus away from God.. it is a sin. It being something or someone. Because God is never second to anyone or anything. Not even the Queen of England.
I am not a Christian because of my loyalty to God over The Crown? I think not. I would never allow any one person to have such power over me that I would commit genocide against ten thousand. But you would.
Explain yourself. Where does national pride end? How many would you kill for the Queen of England? Hundred thousand? What about a million or millions. Afterall what's a million after you kill ten thousand.
Do tell me about your false God and how you would kill for her because of pride. It fits the definition of a false God to me.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
If I had to choose between killing the Queen Of England or killing two homeless people I would choose the Queen.
I respect her, and have great pride in her, but I don't give anymore value to here life than I do yours.
I said I would kill the 10,000 because my wife was dying, and my children's lives were in danger.
What does that tell you? I love my wife and kids more than I respect the Queen.
That's it though, I respect her, and I have pride in her, I don't worship her.
Ever picked up a bible and had a read?
Idolotry is defined as the worship of any image, idea or object as opposed to God.
How many times do it need say it? I DON'T WORSHIP THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND
Tell me, besides baseless arguments, why do you dislike our Queen?
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
You're doubling back on statements you've already made.
Toby, the mere fact that I could get you to commit genocide to save your own family... is sad, unwise and dangerous. A person of such mentality should never be given power over the lives of others.
It's just my proof that your kind are all ugly inside. You'd all feed on eachother given enough emotional disturbance. Really not that much at all. How can I trust such a creature? Such a conditional creature. You really can't. Well not fully.
Thats why no matter how dissapointed I am in people.. it's not the end of the world for me. Like it is for you. Oh my family is away and I am alone. Sympathy please..
Pride is ignorant. Monarchys are relics of the midevil world. What purpose does your monad by serve besides national pride/looking stupid to the rest of the world? Do you think we are impressed?! We've never been impressed.
Also it's funny to ask an American why they don't like anything at all about England. We live a.. different way than you. We aren't loyal fools. Thats what makes us... US.
Btw. LOL @ u getting angry. I don't care about your queen... but you do. Don't you pride boy.
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
You've obviously never experience true love if you wouldn't do anything to save the one you love with all your heart.
No matter what you do, no matter what you say, I refuse to drop to your level.
I am not going to argue with you, it's not enjoyable, and doesn't get anyone anywhere.
I don't think I've ever met an American who doesn't like Britain... And I've met alot of Americans...
I don't have anything bad to say about them, we secretly mock some of them when they leave the office, but that's not because they're American, it's because they're stupid.
It's funny how you talk for your entire nation.
Our 'kind' live in harmony, look at the lives of your average psychopath, alone, unloved, uncared for and then look at ours, or even mine.
I never would've dreamed of becoming what I am today, and of having two wonderful children with my equally wonderful wife. :)
Mock me, argue with me, whatever, you can't penetrate my British Charm... ;)
And you'll never take down my pride, try as you may.
PS.
Sympathy for you? No.
Empathic Concern*? Yes! (*You might need a dictionary)
LOL :-)
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Was it the first Rob Zombie Halloween or the Second one? Micheal Myers as a child is my sons best friends clone. No lie.. He sort of gave us the creeps for awhile. :)
I live in a state where they "use" the death penalty. The first time I knew that some one was going to be executed I couldn't sleep. They used to do them a minute after midnight. It honestly made me physically sick knowing this was going to happen. So many what if's?
Now if I were to personally witness a person doing these horrid things to an innocent person. I would have to agree they should be taken out. In some instances lethal injection is to easy for the pain they have inflicted. Lethal injection is morally correct supposedly and humane.
So I think I just contradicted myself in this post!! lol Hey man, I'm a women!! lol
Re: Anyone who thinks they can better define a 'conscience' is welcome to give it a go...
Beheading, hanging, lethal injection, they can all go wrong. And they can all be used on innocent people - and they have been before, many times. For people who support the death penalty, that one fact should be what puts them off the idea. Innocent people losing their lives for the crimes they didn't commit.
Saudi Arabia - It still uses crucifixion. In the 21st century. Makes you sick doesn't it?
The Death Penalty is a barbaric act which has somehow managed to survive well into the 21st century.
I know how you must of felt, I made sure I was awake at 03:04 in the morning, much to the annoyance of my wife, so I could be up at the same time a British man with Bipolar Disorder was being beheaded in China because two men told him if he smuggled drugs into China, he would "save the world".
I am willing to bet my opinions would change if someone killed or tried to kill my wife, family or children.