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Re: Question for the community

From the perspective of one of these individuals, it is very easy to examine yourself and simply see that you lack any emotion. They see everyone else being enslaved and held back by emotions such as remorse or regret, and dub this internal struggle as weakness simply because they do not experience such emotions. These individuals often have a strong sense of self-preservation that is made known in certain situations, such as an attacking drunk neighbor, the subject will quickly analyze the situation and choose a course of action. In such a situation, a biological excitement can be felt but it is not an emotional excitement, it is only the necessary bodily chemicals needed for a exceptional retaliation.

Re: Question for the community

Juso Crampton
Greetings dear community --

I have been reading some posts here on this forum and there is something that is bugging me. The definition of a sociopath - correct me if I am wrong - is lack of emotion, conscience and remorse. If so, then how can you know you do not feel emotions? Also, I've noted some referring to emotions as a weakness, and some here have mentioned that they would prefer to have no emotions at all even if given the chance to have them; how exactly did you come to these conclusions? Is it like you would know that smoking sucks without ever trying a cigarette? Or did you have some emotional capability when you were younger? Or something else, such as mere observing?
Having no emotions, how exactly is it you can judge the unknown?

Also, some people such as WhiteWolf have mentioned having no fear. Does that also mean lack of self-preservation? Or is it only things such as having wit in a tight situation? I'm also curious to know whether any of you have ever had an adrenaline rush.

Sincerely, Juso Crampton


A lack of conscience is the only definition you need. Remorse is a consequence of conscience.

I have emotions but compared to yours.. not really. I just don't have the spectrum or emotional.. intensity. My mind is very calm compared to the emotional mind. I've learned and been trained to understand the conscience mind.

Would you consider the effective use of munipulation to be a callsign of comprehension? Do you believe such an act would be done in malice? Do you think I'm evil? ;-). J/k



Fear has something to do with your lack of acceptance of a situation or perhaps instinctive? Many people have found comfort in my lack of fear. Girlfriends know I will protect them and friends know I won't let them get hurt. I have no fear. It's something that all my friends and associates have come to respect. I don't get scared but I can be surprised. If that helps.

I have a combative nature. So I've been in many fights but it's all second nature. Perhaps a focused form of rage but thats all. For me a rush comes from driving really fast or doing something dangerous for fun.

I try to avoid such desires. A reason based mind is more rational than it's given credit for?

Maybe I'm just desensetized to reality but there needs to be a rational mind in times of chaos and for many people I am just that. I'm a trustworthy friend. People tell me the wild crap of their lives. Confiding in me like I am their priest or something. Really... I think you're all just broken toys who carry mental baggage.

I feel less burdened than you and I am. It is a gift to me. I live in every moment. Ever had a willing victim? A wife? I say willing victim because when they argue with you.. they're the only ones taking emotional hits. Although they are attempting to hurt you.

Re: Question for the community

First of all, I love the greeting! What a great way to start a post on these forums, no?

It seems that sociopathy means several different things to different groups, something that I think Daniel Birdick and Dee points out repeatedly so I won't dwell on that too much. How can someone who claims to have never had access to regular emotions know anything about them unless they at one point felt them you ask? I don't know. It may be as you suggest Juso. Maybe they just look around and notice the differences. I imagine it wouldn't be very difficult to spot all these other people referring to emotions and feelings and experiences that seem to be completely absent in your own experience. For instance, you Juso might notice an absence of a strong desire to ritualistically torture animals within yourself. That's one way you would notice that you have a different psychological experience from some, say, a horror novel version of psychopaths. You then ask about people who want to be unemotional. Again, I theorize that many people who say this out of a sense of wanting to be released from emotional suffering. They think they would find relief if they could be cold hearted. They theorize that relationships would be simpler if they could be utterly self centered and ruthless because their experience of relationship may have been very painful.

But who knows? I could totally off base! What do you think Juso?

Re: Question for the community

Ecce Homo
First of all, I love the greeting! What a great way to start a post on these forums, no?

Why, thank you!

Ecce Homo
Maybe they just look around and notice the differences. I imagine it wouldn't be very difficult to spot all these other people referring to emotions and feelings and experiences that seem to be completely absent in your own experience. For instance, you Juso might notice an absence of a strong desire to ritualistically torture animals within yourself.

You struck quite a hard nut to crack, Ecce.

How exactly could I understand the mind of someone having fondness for torturing animals? I have no idea. All I can think of is that the person shared a crucially different world view. On the other hand, if everyone else enjoyed torturing animals, I would probably enjoy it as well. So such a liking - I believe - stems from a way of thinking. Perhaps I do not actually lack the desire to ritualistically torture animals, but simply do not acknowledge or follow it. A little far-fetched, but I can not come up with anything better. Not to mention that coming to the conclusion that I simply lack such a desire would be a lot easier. But in order to answer such a question, it is required to know what ''desire'' is. Were that not defined for me, I would probably have no idea whether I desired to do such a thing or not. Even if I had come up with a definition, you would have to involve the question of whether my definition is the correct one.

Any thoughts on this?

Ecce Homo
What do you think Juso?

How can sociopaths know they lack feelings? My view on the whole matter is somewhat open-ended; you would have to involve the question of whether sociopaths are biologically incapable of feeling emotions or not. My opinion is leaning between observing, having earlier experiences and plain unawareness. To elaborate, observation is what we have been discussing here; drawing conclusions from observing people. Having earlier experiences would indicate to what I mentioned in earlier post: person A felt strong emotions when he was 6 years old, person A felt little emotions when he was 18 years old. The third, unawareness, would mean that the person in fact felt emotions, but thought he did not. If this sounds fishy or odd, refer to the earlier speculations.

All that in short: I do not know. Perhaps it is, as you mentioned, dependent on the person. I am glad you asked for my opinion.

The Catalyst
-- such as an attacking drunk neighbor, the subject will quickly analyze the situation and choose a course of action. In such a situation, a biological excitement can be felt but it is not an emotional excitement, it is only the necessary bodily chemicals needed for a exceptional retaliation.

Is it not fear that triggers adrenaline rush? Could you elaborate on what you mean by "emotional excitement"?
Thank you

The Catalyst
They see everyone else being enslaved and held back by emotions such as remorse or regret, and dub this internal struggle as weakness simply because they do not experience such emotions.

Makes sense, Catalyst, but for the sake of arguing:

It it not logical to amend for one's mistakes? I do not like being punched, thus he must also not like being punched, thus I should apologize. Of course you could go deeper and think about whether or not apologizing - or any type of atoning for that matter - makes any difference. Anyhow, this is what kind of surprises me; why do the sociopaths not dub this to emotion? Also, I am curious as to why they even believe emotions exist in the first place. Had I no feelings, I would probably believe such things to be superstition or the result of media or propaganda. Just like some people believe "true love" is superstition, whereas some people fondly cherish the idea.

Whitewolf
Would you consider the effective use of munipulation to be a callsign of comprehension?

A good point, but I do not believe manipulation requires actual understanding. To be able to manipulate, you only have to understand the what, not the why. Not to mention that emotions are not always required in the act. Pride (alias ego), for instance, is often exploited.
What do you think?

Whitewolf
Girlfriends know I will protect them and friends know I won't let them get hurt.

Things such as these puzzle me. If you have no emotions, how can you feel attachment? What drives you to protect them, exactly? Principle?

Whitewolf
For me a rush comes from driving really fast or doing something dangerous for fun.

Hmm, interesting. But is that not what fear is? Some people take a liking in watching horror movies, but I am unsure whether that majorly differs from, say, skydiving. Except that parachuting is probably a lot more exciting. Perhaps I am wrong, and it is like you are suggesting, excitement, and not necessarily fear, that you are experiencing. There is only a hairthin line between the two, after all; one I am sometimes incapable of recognizing.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Whitewolf
Maybe I'm just desensetized to reality but there needs to be a rational mind --

I believe what people determine "rational" varies. Statistics? Could you elaborate?




Thank you for all the splendid responses!

Re: Question for the community

Emotions are easily observable in others. Their facial expression, tone of voice and actions. The best evidence of this is the wide range and the way people get emotional, unrational, from different things. As you observe people you know which buttons to press to get the desired reaction. This is how i know emotions exist and i know how to fake them to cause others to be sympathetic to my feelings, even if they are not real.

I get a rush out of certain situations, sometimes i get paranoid about certain things. But if a bus came speeding towards me i would not freeze in fear, i would get the adrenaline rush of the situation of impending death, but no the fear associated with it. There isn't a single thing i'm afraid of doing. For example my first skydive. I felt nothing but the adrenaline when i jumped out without a moments hesitaton. No emotional state when i looked out from the plane, nothing.

Re: Question for the community

Hexi
Emotions are easily observable in others. Their facial expression, tone of voice and actions. The best evidence of this is the wide range and the way people get emotional, unrational, from different things. As you observe people you know which buttons to press to get the desired reaction.

So, by observing it is!
Could you give me a practical example of this, though? Just to make sure we are on the same track.

Hexi
-- if a bus came speeding towards me i would not freeze in fear, i would get the adrenaline rush of the situation of impending death, but no the fear associated with it.

What exactly motivates you to move out of the way, if not the fear of death? How would you describe the need to move away from the bus' course?
Also, I am curious to know why the adrenaline rush is triggered. Do you merely need to think logically: "I have to move away, because if I don't, I will die." Or is the whole experience better described as an act of instinct?

Hexi
There isn't a single thing i'm afraid of doing. For example my first skydive. I felt nothing but the adrenaline when i jumped out without a moments hesitaton. No emotional state when i looked out from the plane, nothing.

Hmm, it is interesting that you used the term "emotional state"; how do you comprehend the term? How would you describe your current emotional state?



One final question: do you think it is a possibility that you've developed emotions just like other people, but due to a certain emotional state do not recognize or acknowledge them, thus remaining unaffected? Refer to my speculations in the earlier post: the comment after the second quotation.




Thank you for the reply, Hexi! It has been a major help.

Re: Question for the community

Juso Crampton

So, by observing it is!
Could you give me a practical example of this, though? Just to make sure we are on the same track.


A practical example... well when i was a teenager i was on a train with 3 of my frieds, it was on a station waiting for people to get on. We saw some drunk fall down to the tracks next to us and moments later a speeding train ran him over. I was the only one laughing my ass off. Everyone else was looking at me with eyes wide open, in shock. That was my "hint" that you should be shocked at things like that.

My first funeral was also a great experience about different states of grief. Others were more sad than the rest, people with no real emotional ties to the person were just there cause they were invited. I was 8 at the time.


What exactly motivates you to move out of the way, if not the fear of death? How would you describe the need to move away from the bus' course?
Also, I am curious to know why the adrenaline rush is triggered. Do you merely need to think logically: "I have to move away, because if I don't, I will die." Or is the whole experience better described as an act of instinct?


I know i will die if i don't get out of the way so i would say it's basic survival instinct, i haven't really analyzed the reason futher as i'm rarely in such situations.


Hmm, it is interesting that you used the term "emotional state"; how do you comprehend the term? How would you describe your current emotional state?


I've seen emotional states so i know what it is. Some people are hysterical in some situations, some are in a state of panic. The way i understand it is that it's a state of overwhelming emotion in reaction to a situation. Ofcourse i'm just guessing.

My current emotional state? Umm calm.



One final question: do you think it is a possibility that you've developed emotions just like other people, but due to a certain emotional state do not recognize or acknowledge them, thus remaining unaffected? Refer to my speculations in the earlier post: the comment after the second quotation.


We all have emotions, otherwise we would be drones who act purely on instinct, no? I get angry, sad, lonely, happy just like everyone else. It's just different, more... subtle i think. Ofcourse i have nothing to compare it to really.

It's been said many times but it's pretty much the best analogy. People like me look at normals through a stained glass, isolated yet with them.

Re: Question for the community

Juso:

When I think of desire I think of an emotional kind of “stretching toward”, so to speak, with the belief that satisfaction, pleasure, etc will be experienced once the object of the desire is obtained. To want, to reach for or stretch toward the experience of torturing another living being, believing that it will be satisfying, is what I meant. As for whether this definition of desire is correct or not, well that’s up to us, isn’t it? In any event, I used the torturing animals desire as a way of demonstrating that if, as you say, everyone around you loved to torture animals and you noticed that you did not, you could then come onto an internet forum like this and indicate the difference without having firsthand knowledge of this desire yourself. You may not really know what the experience is like if the capacity for it is absent, but you can know that it is absent when you compare yourself with others, much as a virgin can know he/she has not had sex and can report that difference to others.

Re: Question for the community

I am loyal to my own. You don't have to have a conscience to have a sense of loyalty or honor. I believe a conscience will actually make things such as loyalty more waivering in people.

There is what they want to do and there is what they should do. Often people choose themselves over what is right. Some subject themselves to guilt but refuse to stop the behavior. Honor is a forgotten word.

I believe the analogy of deer in headlights explained it best. We just don't feel fear. It doesn't exist in our world. It scares you that we can be civil without the threat of fear? Imagine if you made one of us... angry. Without fear or consequence... what would stop us. Believe it or not... I am incapable of sustaining a feeling of hatred towards others. You could make me mad today and tomorrow we could be friends again.

Life is to much like a game for me to hold onto negative feelings. I just stop caring. If you can understand that. Without a conscience to stir my emotions and.. do whatever it does that makes you people stay mad for days. I lack that.

So there you have it. Fearless, incapable of sustaining hatred and loyal to my own.

Re: Question for the community

Thank you for replying, Whitewolf!


Whitewolf
I am loyal to my own. You don't have to have a conscience to have a sense of loyalty or honor.

A very good note, one I believe I can understand. But what is it that drives you to be loyal, exactly? That is what I am interested in. I suggested principle; is that it? I can imagine it being hard to explain, but I would very much appreciate it if you tried to.

Whitewolf
I am incapable of sustaining a feeling of hatred towards others.

I was unsure whether any sociopaths could feel hatred, since hatred and anger are also emotions. Thank you for confirming this, anyhow. Do you have any example of a situation where you have become angry?

Re: Question for the community

Juso Crampton
Thank you for replying, Whitewolf!


Whitewolf
I am loyal to my own. You don't have to have a conscience to have a sense of loyalty or honor.

A very good note, one I believe I can understand. But what is it that drives you to be loyal, exactly? That is what I am interested in. I suggested principle; is that it? I can imagine it being hard to explain, but I would very much appreciate it if you tried to.

Whitewolf
I am incapable of sustaining a feeling of hatred towards others.

I was unsure whether any sociopaths could feel hatred, since hatred and anger are also emotions. Thank you for confirming this, anyhow. Do you have any example of a situation where you have become angry?


My friends are those associates who have displayed strong character in areas of my appeal. I count my friends on one hand but I have many associates. These friends are loyal to me... beyond society. Some associates have similar loyalty but have character flaws I cannot accept. Why fight for my friends? Because they would fight for me. Principle?

Defending women was first introduced to me as a southern value. I've watched women fight. But you can't hit your wife or kids infront of me. Pain... teaches me nothing but years of inflicting pain have taught me that the normal person is very much afraid of pain. To inflict physical pain on a woman or child in my presence is to provoke my anger.

It's interesting. Unless I precieve people as physical threats.. Their words really mean nothing to me. In theory you could insult me and all I would do is demean you in return.

Sidenote: Some little dogs provoke my instinct to harm them. I can't finger it exactly. Is it their fear? Hunters instincts?

A question for others. When you fight do you feel a mindset change? Like when you smash your first into someones face or slam them into the ground. Do you feel a sort of desire to hurt them more? As if it feels good to hurt them. It feels right. How can it feel so good if it's wrong? My guess is it's karma.

Re: Question for the community

I think it's more to do with the fact that humans are the most violent beings on the planet. It's our instinct to harm other living things, and enjoy it. For me personally, i dislike violence. I never start fights but once i'm forced into a physical confrontation i have nothing holding me back from just maiming a person to death without hesitation. Luckily i've never fought anyone alone so someone has always stepped in to stop me. Apparently i lose all human facial expressions and just lose myself, which i enjoy. It's the consequences that i aknoweledge i don't like, thus i avoid fighting.

Re: Question for the community

Consequences. My mother would always tell me to think of the consequences before doing something. I just learned not to get caught.

Can't deny what you are. Why try?

Re: Question for the community

White Wolf
A question for others. When you fight do you feel a mindset change? Like when you smash your first into someones face or slam them into the ground. Do you feel a sort of desire to hurt them more? As if it feels good to hurt them. It feels right. How can it feel so good if it's wrong? My guess is it's karma.


Huh. I didn’t notice this question until now. But since you ask, I conceptualize feelings into a kind of hierarchy. I would have to be feeling an overwhelming sense of anger in order to be able to smash someone’s face in. Even then, I probably wouldn’t do it, but let’s just go with it since it is your example. This great anger, this rage, in my hierarchy, feels better than say depression or despair because it is energetic. It gets my blood pumping and my heart beating. It has the potential to fuel action. But contentment feels better to me than anger. Better still is peace. Better still is gratitude. Even better still is joy. Emotional experiences like peace, a grateful heart, and joy never move me to hurt others. On the contrary. In my own case, I am more comfortable in other people’s presence when I am in a state of peace or contentment or joy. The consequences of actions taken while in these states for myself and others are more likely to be beneficial than when I take action out of anger or rage. As to the question of right or wrong and how that relates to emotion, I don’t know. I wouldn’t try answering big moral questions for other people. And for me, karma is just another word for life giving you what you give it, so it is neutral in that sense. It seems to me that you increase the odds of getting your own face smashed in if you are in the habit of smashing in other people's faces.

Re: Question for the community

I could walk through the valley of the shadow of death and never feel fear. I do not recognize pain as something that could hurt me. Losing to one of them... very unlikely but possible.

Re: Question for the community

Thank you for all the terrific responses, everyone!

I believe I have received the answer to my question; I've another one but I believe it would be a little off-topic to introduce it here. I will create another topic for that later on.


Lastly, to answer your question, Whitewolf:

Whitewolf
A question for others. When you fight do you feel a mindset change? Like when you smash your first into someones face or slam them into the ground. Do you feel a sort of desire to hurt them more? As if it feels good to hurt them. It feels right. How can it feel so good if it's wrong? My guess is it's karma.

I do not feel any particular mindset change, nor do I feel good about it. Of course it would depend on why exactly I would hit them in the first place. Since I do not - at least consciously - provoke any violence, I would do it out of self-defense. In such a case, I would probably feel fear. Nothing else.