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Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Xtine
Isn't it true "freedom of choice" (inborn), that makes us human? Thanks Daniel, I hardly have time to sit down for a minute this weekend. I'm normally more vocal ;)


I remember now that there has been discussion over the validity of "free will", I'll have to look over it properly... later.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

If the essence of being human is free will then no one is human because as far as I can see, free will as it is popularly understood is a fiction.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Hmm, perhaps I should have said the ability to entertain the illusion of free-will?

Anyway, I'm not sure thats everyone's popular theory, though it seems to be here.

Honestly, I like to think there is a middle path. Obviously genetic, cultural, environmental and possibly other predeterminants limit or direct one's choices and progress in life. And I believe that to a large extent the development of moral pathways isn't free will. And I'm aware of what brain scans show, but I do believe that self-awareness and the controlling of ones own response to ones motivations can significantly vary outcomes. Chicken or egg first?

Empathy, IMO, like conscience is developed depending on genetics or environment, but not necessary to being a "human".

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Daniel Birdick
If the essence of being human is free will then no one is human because as far as I can see, free will as it is popularly understood is a fiction.
how you DOES can SAYS that when you does can THINKS and WALKS and TALKS? like you DID sayed before everyone DOES be special and DOES can FREE WILL.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Daniel Birdick
It is true that no single person, no matter how compassionate they are, can save the world.
nope does CAN saves the world if they DOES tryes. have you TRYED? you can SAVES world if you DOES tryes enough and ALSO i does will TRYES.

Daniel Birdick
I think my “problem” has been that I have been surrounded by provincial thinkers most of my life. So many people in my offline have been and are even today very simplistic in their outlook. I have reacted adversely against that. I think that is one of the reasons I come to forums like this one. It has given me a chance to work out some of my thoughts with obviously intelligent and self aware folk like you.
thanks


Daniel Birdick
to put it more cynically, we are our own unique little snowflake, just like everybody else.

you DOES means everyone be SPECIAL? i does AGREE with you everyone DOES be special. GOD did created everyone SO they does be DIFERENT

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Lega

Could you explain your funny way of writing/style? What or where does it originate from?

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Lega:

I have read all of your posts on this forum. Are you kidding us with that strange lingo, or is this really the way you talk?
Besides your funny way of writing which I believe must be a joke of some kind, your point of view is terribly judgmental and self righteous. And I hear a nastiness behind it. I suggest you read Doctor Robert's reply to the man who constantly found himself surrounded by sin.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Daniel Birdick


Dee -

I liked what you said about normals with perhaps an average range of empathy, using all manner of means to manage those feelings when they become inconvenient or downright painful. It is true that no single person, no matter how compassionate they are, can save the world. If any would be savior allowed him/herself to feel the totality of the world’s pain, the totality of all that suffering might kill him/her. Oh wait, that sounds suspiciously like the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Jesus. He was said to carry the weight of all of mankind’s sins on his shoulders the day he died on the cross, hence the salvific nature of his crucifixion. Mythology aside, I do not fault normals for having to shut down somewhat just to make it through the day. It does make sense. The unreflective self righteousness is what annoys me. I think my “problem” has been that I have been surrounded by provincial thinkers most of my life. So many people in my offline have been and are even today very simplistic in their outlook. I have reacted adversely against that. I think that is one of the reasons I come to forums like this one. It has given me a chance to work out some of my thoughts with obviously intelligent and self aware folk like you.

It has never occurred to me to consider measuring suffering. I think in a few senses, we can measure it, but only with great approximation. We would also have to define what we mean by suffering.
Also, I have never heard of the idea of empathy as a kind of measurement either. What do you mean by that?

Finally, you mentioned weapon control. I do not have a strong opinion about that. As you can guess, I am anti-ideological. It is one of my pet peeves about both liberals and conservatives. They believe in their political doctrine so strongly that they blind themselves and become unpragmatic, destructive and downright stupid. I will say this though. Those who really want to get a gun will get a gun, regardless of what the law says.



Yeah, about shutting down themselves, I mean: no one is perfect and we all have our limits. And it seems silly to try and sacrifice yourself for the world. I've since learnt that humans are better off if they receive some guidance and learn how to support and lift themselves out of their own problems, than if the world were to subsidise them totally.

Empathy as a way of measuring how much you're a human. Like whether a human is how much of a good or bad person by his sense of empathy. The problem, though, is just that because a person can emphatise, if he or she doesn't step in, it can be useless. It's like: what's the point about relating if you do nothing? Plus there are so many levels and types of empathy, it's a really complicated issue.

This concept of using empathy as a measurement device also serves as a test for how well you can blend into society: how good you are at displaying a set of "conventionally accepted mindset and behaviours for certain situations" and at displaying artificial personalities and moving between them(in terms of gesture, thought, etc.). Well, parts of this concept are sometimes used here in my country while larger parts of this concept are often employed some other parts of Asia, for determining whether you can be accepted into a group or into a company. But I don't know about the US.

Ah yes, why do we measure suffering like grief and other negative emotions? So that we can find an outlet for them? So that we will be able to better express ourselves? To give a name to victims of holocausts and so on? Frankly, I don't really know.

Yes I'd like to point out that most of the people in my life were poor, misguided fools whose worldviews are so alarming, you actually wonder how they made this far in life. =P Oh well, as they say: "They look really cute/pretty until they open their mouths." Ahh thank goodness for the internet where I can find forums like this to extend my self-awareness. Unreflective self-righteousness huh? You can blame poor education at home and at school and in society for that. These days, people treat having children as some sort of "fun thing" without realizing the amount of work and effort it takes to nurture a fully-functioning, self-aware young adult. Also, too many people have been taught never to question so they simply take everything at face value and are unable to make a distinction between the "various truths and layers" of a certain situation.

Oh I'm intelligent and self-aware? I know of people who're even far more so than me. :p But I'm flattered, thank you! Though actually, if you'd told me that "face to face", I'd probably try to slap you for telling me so while snickering away. Oh yes, I'm not sure if you knew it before but I'm female.

To me, the best policies aren't about ideologies but whether they can actually solve the problem or not. Problem is: most current policies don't do a thing, except for winning the people's popularity or making things worse. You know, when politicians decide to apply theory instead of actually "thinking", that's a really bad thing.

I don't really know or care about ideologies or philosophies. They're interesting to read about but often, they fall under "BS" because a lot of them are just loaded with all sort of assumptions(gender, neurological, economical, cultural, etc., etc.). Freud comes to mind a lot. I've read a bit about Greek philosophies and sophism though. Interesting but hard to grasp because I'm not always good at understanding stuff like that. I've got my good and bad days.

I'm neither liberal or conservative(using American distinctions here). I only believe in whatever feels right to me. For a long time, I didn't have to think because this country has been ruled by the same party ever since it was founded and it doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always wins.

But once I understood a little more, I rejected either because what the h.e.l.l do things like ethics and trying to make a sense out of a situation and people's intentions or assumptions, have to do with being liberal or conservative?

Heh, about weapon control: hmmm... in this country, it's really hard to get hold of a gun. The rules and penalties are so strict, that you're bound to land in jail for 3 to 5 years minimum, plus lashing of the cane and possible torture to make you confess to crimes you never did. Same for many types of weapons: really hard to get them without a license. Perhaps the difficulty of acquiring the weapons and the rarity of such crimes(acquiring them) is because the people here are cowards and also really greedy for power and money, so they'll do anything to get on the government's good side. And yes, that includes telling on their friends, family and relatives. Plus since almost all of the companies here are under the government's control, so if you run afoul of the law, you might never get employed again. So perhaps, that's why my perception regarding topics like these is far more rigid or even lop-sided?

P.S. Will reply to your other post soon.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Dee
The problem, though, is just that because a person can emphatise, if he or she doesn't step in, it can be useless. It's like: what's the point about relating if you do nothing?


Exactly. Your comment echoes this one which I thought was blunt but on point:

Pity that doesn’t lead to an act of compassion is just narcissistic wallowing. No one needs that. An act of compassion that expects tail wagging and hand-licking afterward is manipulation.


Dee
But I don't know about the US.


I think what you have described is true here also, only most actually believe in their masks.

Also, too many people have been taught never to question so they simply take everything at face value and are unable to make a distinction between the "various truths and layers" of a certain situation.


It would appear that complex thinking is not common anywhere.

Oh I'm intelligent and self-aware? I know of people who're even far more so than me. :p But I'm flattered, thank you! Though actually, if you'd told me that "face to face", I'd probably try to slap you for telling me so while snickering away.


LOL and you are welcome. I figured you were a girl, btw.

To me, the best policies aren't about ideologies but whether they can actually solve the problem or not. Problem is: most current policies don't do a thing, except for winning the people's popularity or making things worse. You know, when politicians decide to apply theory instead of actually "thinking", that's a really bad thing.


We agree again. I wonder if it is also a generation thing. What has been dubbed the Boomer generation in the US tends to sometimes be so idealistic that they (or to be fair, some of them) become unwilling to bend and adapt to reality. These types are unresponsive and inflexible. They would rather burn everything than try to find a middle ground, hence the current stalemate in Washington DC. The culture warriors on both sides would see the country destroyed before they compromise their oh so important principles. Idiots. As an aside, I was watching an action movie this weekend about a tournament of assassins killing each other in a modern British city. A priest gets dragged into the mayhem and one of the female assassins comes to his aid. In one scene, just as the lady killer is about to put a bullet into the brain of a guy who had just tried to murder her and the priest, the priest begs her not to do it because sparing his life would be the “right thing to do”. God I hate those characters!!! “There is no right thing to do!” I silently screamed at the priest. “Kill the fugger and be done with it!” Alas, they could not hear me. It’s ok because the secret billionaire funded organization behind the tournament blew the dude up anyway using an explosive tracking device they hid inside his body. Gotta love action movies! :-)

When it comes to philosophy, I don’t know that you are missing much. Philosophy that is ungrounded in the sciences or our subjective experience is not very helpful in my view. I do enjoy existentialism though. I also like Zen, Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen. I think these “mystical” schools of thought are onto something. If I could be sincerely religious, I’d be probably be a practitioner of either one of these “faiths” or something in Buddhism in general.

It sounds like the country you live in does not take any grief from any of its citizens. I imagine that if I were in a country like that I would gravitate toward the power centers like government and corporations. I imagine that the higher up you go, the more leeway you have with regard to certain legalities. That seems to be the way of it among humans of all stripes. Elites have more power and thus more privileges of one sort or the other.

Thanks again for your intelligent replies Dee.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Gah really sorry for the late reply.

Here's what happened: my pc shut down and I lost all your replies that I was writing. I should use MS Word from now on. Ugh! And it’s 6++ a.m. right now, I haven’t slept and so, forgive me if my grammar and punctuation are off.

Exactly. Your comment echoes this one which I thought was blunt but on point:
Well, okay… not everyone is able to react “on time” but I do like to think that at least once in a while is better than doing nothing all the time. As to why people don’t always step in, it can be hesitancy or if not thoughts/factors like these: will I be able to make things better or worse? Do I possess the right knowledge to actually help? What if said person doesn’t want my help? Oh great, it’s her again, she’d rather dance with the wolves than get any aid from me.

And there’s insecurity or the possibility that the incident is already over before you can step in. And there’s fear or horror too which can paralyze someone and freeze them. I guess according to your world of logic, A = A. However, it’s rarely that simple as just like the concept of cell division, there are ways by which a situation can evolve.

And if you’re curious: Yes, I’ve failed to step in quite a few times because I’m horrid at reading social cues and at reading other people’s expressions or if not, being unable to know why they’re acting this/that way. But I can and will help once in a while, if asked and if the task is up to my abilities. Though at times, I’ve felt sympathy for others but intentionally didn’t step forth because I come first and the situation wasn’t that bad anyways. In a world of finite resources, there can only be so many people who benefit. Live or die. Have I also intentionally lied to someone, in order to mislead them and to divert something to me? Hmmm… sometimes. Though as I’m getting older, it seems so much easier to not feel anything. And sometimes, this strategy works, other times, it doesn’t. Depends on how others are able to manipulate the situation to their advantage or how well they read into me and so on.

Oh and speaking of empathy which is related to conscience, ughh... conscience and empathy, come back! Don't leave me alone! :( If anyone’s laughing at that, stop. :P Hmmm… how does one test empathy? I’d love to know. I do know that being resistant to images of blood and carnage only proves one thing: desensitization and so forth.


I think what you have described is true here also, only most actually believe in their masks.
Ah, interesting. I guess it’s easy for humans to forget that they’re playing a role and that the “person out there” isn’t really who they are. I routinely hear about actors and actresses getting divorced, after realizing they’d been “living out” their characters for years. But I guess it must be really easy for you to emerge from the state of “false consciousness”, much like turning off a switch, than trying to swim to the surface like normals do.

Though btw, here... it used to go to the extremes. Not sure about over in US or even Europe. As in: people used to determine their sexuality based on what society demanded. It’s not so common anymore partly due to Westernization(“civilized masses”) and how the Europeans tried to crush out “immorality” but at one time, you’d find gay/bisexual/etc. priests/whatever who acted that way because a set of philosophy or social norms demanded it. Sometimes, they’d love someone that way while at other times, it was restricted to sex. Love as in: romance, reciprocating someone’s affections, etc., not just having sex with someone(of the same gender) like they do in all those porno stuff or even literature. Though I doubt this practice happens much anymore.


It would appear that complex thinking is not common anywhere.

Not in this age, no. I’ve a few thoughts: inventions and discoveries are constantly made and our perceptions of many topics and subjects are changing so fast, that schools are incapable of catching up. Almost all subjects are highly complex and each one of them requires different types of thinking for various topics. It requires a lot of effort to nurture complex thinking, something many schools can’t do: lack of funding, too many pupils, insufficient quality teachers, etc.

As a result, it becomes a strain to try and keep up with everything in life. Because you have to routinely relearn everything about a subject once every few years. And very likely, reprogram your logic and sense of thinking and interpretation about a topic because of certain new discoveries, new observations you’ve come across. Now try throwing forth all the “requisite subjects” that you’ve in a school curriculum and knowledge becomes a cruel irony as there’s no way someone can become educated and knowledgeable by working at a fixed, singular pace catered to all. Besides, the last I recall, most schools required rote learning than true understanding, as a way to cope with the increasing burden of knowledge. And of course, there’re far more motives the governments have for ensuring the pupils turn out that way. If you bring up a mass who doesn’t even know how to think and question, then you will have a population who’s obedient and who will believe your “words”, unable to see the intention behind them. Though if things go really wrong, then everyone(including the opponents and government) is so screwed.

Plus, society is rapidly falling apart: too many uncontrolled outside influences from various cultures and countries, which have a highly aggressive impact on culture, economy, sectors, our perceptions and others, innovation outstripping society’s ability to accommodate them, etc. After all, these are developments that would previously take decades to centuries to millenniums to develop and spread forth amongst the human population. Instead, they are now being absorbed and/or rejected within months to years. So, people are using simple things: music, fashion, comics, movies, tv, etc. to try and connect with others from other countries and cultures or to create their own sense of reality, in order to even feel alive. Of course, those are the more moderate efforts. The more extreme ones would be politics and ideologies where people refuse to give ground. Some reasons I have figured out: because there are those who define their existence or sense of reality based on a set of ideals/codes(maybe it’s neurological process: how they read and process situations, people, life and so on), a defensive action(humans often cling to something familiar in order to “protect” themselves. Maybe it’s a left-over action from our old tribal days). Oh and people don’t like new things, they don’t always like change and when things are going too fast for them, they’ll sometimes try to stick to something old. How about you? Do you like change?

So, yep, complex thinking is on the wane. After all, if you don’t have the mindset in order to learn, how can you even sense certain things? I guess I was lucky, I was home-schooled in subjects that were uncommon for women at that time: war, history, politics, sociology, philosophy, etc. Let me put things this way: school did not teach me much at all. Did school teach you anything?

LOL and you are welcome. I figured you were a girl, btw.

Ah btw, how and when did you know I was female? The way I process or express my emotions? Some day, I must find out how the world knows I’m female on the net. Girl? Hmmm… I’m just younger than you by less than 10 years. Oh right, that means you’re much older than me. :P *snickers* Old and… possibly, out of touch with reality. Hint: You do realize I’m saying this because I’d never get the chance to do that face-to-face with one of the conscience-less/non-empaths without getting burnt? =P Whether that’s being emotionally, financially, romantically, sexually or something else, I’d probably get the soul sucked out of me. Or so, M.E. seems to claim. I just couldn’t stop laughing when I read “Seducing a sociopath”. Just another question: if you were a normal, would you dare to date a psychopath/sociopath, if you knew about the dangers and so forth? I’ll consider my answer and reply next time.

We agree again. I wonder if it is also a generation thing. What has been dubbed the Boomer generation in the US tends to sometimes be so idealistic that they (or to be fair, some of them) become unwilling to bend and adapt to reality. These types are unresponsive and inflexible. They would rather burn everything than try to find a middle ground, hence the current stalemate in Washington DC. The culture warriors on both sides would see the country destroyed before they compromise their oh so important principles. Idiots.
Because they have never really experienced loss, the pain of finite resources and so on. These are people who have been brought up on a concept that there is more than enough money, food and water and so on in the world. They don’t understand that life is not made up of ideologies and that people sometimes make choices because their hand is forced.

Like many Europeans I’ve met on the net, they just don’t understand what it is like, to fight over everything, just to survive. To many, Asia and Africa and so forth… are full of “ruthless, immoral, psychotic machinations who are utterly cruel when dealing with themselves and even worse with outsiders”. *rolls eyes* Finite resources = you struggle a lot more. And therefore, if they’ve never fought and struggled for survival, they’re unlikely to understand how it is to experience peace and why it’s important to negotiate. Many have not understood yet that there is a price to pay for everything. Will it be of blood? Of money? Of your assets? Or something else?

And this stubbornness is a knee-jerk response, I guess, because of all the wars and problems we’ve gone through. Like the child who hides under the blanket because of all the “monsters” out there, the adults hide behind a “nice and perfect” reality that protects them from the “big, bad world” out there. Why do they do it? Too many reasons. Fear, brain can’t cope, crippled understanding of reality, etc., etc. And most of all, the mistakes, the crimes and acts of all our predecessors are weighing upon humans. Over 1000 years of history: which still continue to shape how people in different countries treat and perceive one another.

Oh well, anyone who’s naiive will learn soon enough. Because you know what? The Euro is crumbling, the US Dollar is also going to hell and so is every **** country on earth. People are busy polluting and destroying the environment, leading to crippled water and food supplies. Soon, we’ll be eating lab-grown meat and real meat will be a luxury. Oh and the US is going bankrupt: the fools are using up all the gold in Fort Knox. But then so will many other governments, too.

And all the governments are just pretending that everything is fine. It is not. And it will not be. And having Summits and Gatherings will not fix a darn thing because words and agreements are nothing. And ploys and strategies are useless if their purpose is to bicker and delay facing reality, while fussing over “which country is better in human rights”. Like any “pro human rights” government is better: they’re only all saintly because they let people die out there, while pretending things are all right.


As an aside, I was watching an action movie this weekend about a tournament of assassins killing each other in a modern British city. A priest gets dragged into the mayhem and one of the female assassins comes to his aid. In one scene, just as the lady killer is about to put a bullet into the brain of a guy who had just tried to murder her and the priest, the priest begs her not to do it because sparing his life would be the “right thing to do”. God I hate those characters!!! “There is no right thing to do!” I silently screamed at the priest. “Kill the fugger and be done with it!” Alas, they could not hear me. It’s ok because the secret billionaire funded organization behind the tournament blew the dude up anyway using an explosive tracking device they hid inside his body. Gotta love action movies! :-)


ROFL… nope, I don’t really care much for priests anymore. I mean… most of them have probably lost touch with whatever ideologies they represent. Because the world right now, interprets religious texts by selected sentences and not by the overall themes they represent. Plus, religion has always been a tool for war. Ahhh… can’t watch action movies. I’m sick and they screw with my adrenalines too much. I kinda miss them but on the other hand, can’t really stand them. “Good and evil… the Axis of Evil… blah blah blah.”

And actually, I rarely care that much for many good characters. Because no one is ever that perfect. The best literature are comics, books, films, etc. where everyone has their own motivations and personal ideals/thoughts driving them. No good or evil crap. And if the person really is good, you better really show it and not just have textbook ideologists. I mean: people like that kinda priest would be taken advantage of in real life. *smirks* The more “innocent” they are, the greater they fall. I should know… lol. And it’s always so fun to tell people things that horrify or shock them: no, the broadsword wasn’t invented for fun or for display. It was used for inflicting maximum damage, for severing the arms, the torso, etc. And that jagged weapon? It was probably designed for cutting through the skin and ripping out the veins, the internal organs.

Kill him? Oh no… you capture him and take your time torturing him and then screw with his head to make him agree with you, before killing him off or releasing him back to his people. Or turn him into some corrupted little devil before releasing him into the world to wreck havoc. =P There are always ways to make people feel pain and to break them without shedding any blood. Although I haven’t really tried it on anyone other than my family. When we were fighting, that is.

When it comes to philosophy, I don’t know that you are missing much. Philosophy that is ungrounded in the sciences or our subjective experience is not very helpful in my view. I do enjoy existentialism though. I also like Zen, Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen. I think these “mystical” schools of thought are onto something. If I could be sincerely religious, I’d be probably be a practitioner of either one of these “faiths” or something in Buddhism in general.
Perhaps… I do like to inspire myself though. And at times, reading works like that… even if I don’t understand them, gives me some peace and solace. It’s also interesting to read about life in a different Age, how people acted and thought and so on. Errr… I’ve heard a bit about Zen. What’s Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen? And what’s existentialism? I recall having heard about it but it’s almost 8 a.m. right now and my brains are falling apart. Hah… I doubt I could be that faithful. I’ve experimented with so many faiths(a giant list) and can’t find one that I really like. Buddhism comes close but I love my meat. =P Plus, the human body requires animal protein to survive. Become a vegan and you’re going to be facing hell if you’re an unlucky one, when your body falls apart from lack of nutrition. And oh, btw, plants scream in pain too except we can’t hear their cries. So much for the concept of “plants = peace because we’re not really killing them”. Duh, because there’s plant blood! :P

It sounds like the country you live in does not take any grief from any of its citizens. I imagine that if I were in a country like that I would gravitate toward the power centers like government and corporations. I imagine that the higher up you go, the more leeway you have with regard to certain legalities. That seems to be the way of it among humans of all stripes. Elites have more power and thus more privileges of one sort or the other.


Oh and actually, it’s even worse as you move towards the top of the power. Because sure, you get more liberties but the noose around your neck gets tighter as you’re forced to conform to the more demanding social norms and lifestyle for the higher classes. For the normal citizens like me, surveillance and propaganda(CCTVs, ID tracking and recording, heavily state-controlled local media, reminders to be a “good citizen”, suggested reading of certain “literature”, subtle hints of eugenics, etc.) are there but not that bad since we’re used to it. But the problem for the higher classes isn’t just of fitting in: it’s that you’ll likely have people and electronic eyes watching you most or all the time for any slips, listening to your every word and conversation. It’s fairly troublesome, really and not something to be caught up in. After all, one can be forced into ruins(bankruptcy, exile, etc.) or even be made to disappear for life, should one **** off the people sitting at the top.

Thanks again for your intelligent replies Dee.
What? Me, intelligent? :P

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Dee
Do you like change?


Do I like change? I neither like nor dislike it. I have, however, literally picked up, left everything behind and moved half way across the country once before. That was interesting. I have been in and out of the military. I’ve been married and single. And I have very recently moved again, temporarily, to live with family in another city as a way of taking a break from my normal routine. So I don’t have a problem with change.

Did school teach you anything?


Sure it did. Reading, writing and ‘rithmatic. And I learned how someone like me can navigate through the world of humans. It’s funny, but in a sense, society doesn’t really change much from high school and that’s because the people themselves do not fundamentally change. So many of them think they grow up, but in their heart of hearts, they never stop being a frightened child.

Ah btw, how and when did you know I was female? The way I process or express my emotions?


I’m not sure. It’s the tone, the choice of words. Usually I can just tell. But of course, in your case, it helped that you chose the name Dee, which is normally a feminine name.

Just another question: if you were a normal, would you dare to date a psychopath/sociopath, if you knew about the dangers and so forth?


Of course. Aren’t normals known for doing things like this, things that are in the exact opposite of their rational self interest? :-)

Because they have never really experienced loss, the pain of finite resources and so on. These are people who have been brought up on a concept that there is more than enough money, food and water and so on in the world. They don’t understand that life is not made up of ideologies and that people sometimes make choices because their hand is forced.

Like many Europeans I’ve met on the net, they just don’t understand what it is like, to fight over everything, just to survive. To many, Asia and Africa and so forth… are full of “ruthless, immoral, psychotic machinations who are utterly cruel when dealing with themselves and even worse with outsiders”. *rolls eyes* Finite resources = you struggle a lot more. And therefore, if they’ve never fought and struggled for survival, they’re unlikely to understand how it is to experience peace and why it’s important to negotiate. Many have not understood yet that there is a price to pay for everything. Will it be of blood? Of money? Of your assets? Or something else?


You know, I think you might actually be onto something here. At least, partly. We should never, however, underestimate the power of true belief to motivate.

What’s Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen? And what’s existentialism?


Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen are the non-dual schools of Hinduism and Buddhism respectively. They are, in essence, supposed to serve as teachings which point the adherent directly to the absolute. Existentialism is a Western philosophy that focuses on the subjectivity of the individual, his “responsibility” to face the world, his self and the truth of his “existence”, alone. I’m greatly simplifying all of this, but if you want to know I’m sure you’ll find a way to learn more.

And no offense, but it sounds like your country sucks! If gaining power isn’t even fun then what’s the point of all that oppression?

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Do I like change? I neither like nor dislike it. I have, however, literally picked up, left everything behind and moved half way across the country once before. That was interesting. I have been in and out of the military. I’ve been married and single. And I have very recently moved again, temporarily, to live with family in another city as a way of taking a break from my normal routine. So I don’t have a problem with change.

So you not just embrace change, you initiate it as well, in order to observe and be involved in the experiences it might bring forth. Did those experiences add to your perceptions and view of this world, of the types of people around you?

Sure it did. Reading, writing and ‘rithmatic. And I learned how someone like me can navigate through the world of humans. It’s funny, but in a sense, society doesn’t really change much from high school and that’s because the people themselves do not fundamentally change. So many of them think they grow up, but in their heart of hearts, they never stop being a frightened child.

Yeah, many people just don’t change a lot. Why? I don’t know. Probably being stubborn, I guess. Resisting change and so on. And then there’s evidence(supposedly) that suggests many people are unable to accept certain types of changes.

I’m not sure. It’s the tone, the choice of words. Usually I can just tell. But of course, in your case, it helped that you chose the name Dee, which is normally a feminine name.
All good points. I’ll keep that in mind.

Of course. Aren’t normals known for doing things like this, things that are in the exact opposite of their rational self interest? :-)


No, I wouldn't date one. Namely because it would be like playing with fire. That's all. No, not making any assumptions. But mainly, because it’s not easy to deal with egoism, nihilism, narcissism, etc. without leading to conflict. And conflict of any kind usually leads to problems for either or both sides. So, there you go.


You know, I think you might actually be onto something here. At least, partly. We should never, however, underestimate the power of true belief to motivate.

Heh… hmm, makes a lot of sense. True beliefs? Hmm… makes sense too. To me, though, that’s a silly thing actually. To believe, wholly and totally in a concept without learning how to question it or understand how someone arrived at the concept would be silly(neurology, geography, cultural, disease, etc.).


Advaita Vedanta and Dzogchen are the non-dual schools of Hinduism and Buddhism respectively. They are, in essence, supposed to serve as teachings which point the adherent directly to the absolute. Existentialism is a Western philosophy that focuses on the subjectivity of the individual, his “responsibility” to face the world, his self and the truth of his “existence”, alone. I’m greatly simplifying all of this, but if you want to know I’m sure you’ll find a way to learn more.

To the absolute? Hmm… interesting. I guess I’ll find out sooner or later, what this “absolute” means.

Existentialism: interesting concept. Thanks for taking your time to explain.

Incidentally, the movie scene you wrote out: which movie did it come from?

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Also, forgot about this:

And no offense, but it sounds like your country sucks! If gaining power isn’t even fun then what’s the point of all that oppression?


Oh because someone(Lee Kuan Yew) already beat the others to the top. He maneuvered to the very top, established himself as Prime Minister(now Senior Minister) and formed a personality cult here, and stuff like that. People incredibly worship him: pour praises on him, attribute all their hard work to him and so on. It's incredible, actually: the machinations and how he controls the entire country.

And also sickening because of how the masses just deceive themselves and keep parroting like some "brain-dead morons". And this guy is amazing. Because the American and many other governments often have no choice but to give in, should the government make demands. Just think about it, forcing someone to go against everything they believe in. And to make things even more hilarious, the government of my country supposedly co-operates with countries like Myanmar, North Korea, Iran and so on. No, I'm not paranoid. I just read the news from various sources every now and then.

Hmmm... I could make a lot of reasons about the oppression but mostly, just think of a much more "democratic" version of "North Korea", where oppression is just another "tool" for the rulers to use, to keep the masses in line. Oh, we're more civilized than that to have concentration camps like the North Koreans, really. But that's for now. Unseeable for the future. And the oppression policy is from the old days of the British: the policy of "divide and conquer" they used to gain control of the people here.

Btw, a tip from me: if your country/state wants to implement IDs and link them to, or treat them like, your Social Security Numbers, and also computerize much of the city/state and link up much of the state's services to this ID, just say NO. If they implement that full-scale, the government will probably have access to your bank details and every other single **** thing on your life, that's been computerized. Just imagine this: a network that will link up your dental records, phone records, fingerprints, driving records, family records, library records, bank records, occupational records, your travelling records, criminal records(if one has any) and possibly even your DNA or even which websites you last visited and many other details, with just a couple of commands. The implications are really even worse should many or most of the states start co-operating and sharing their data. Last I heard a few years ago, I know some American states were already trying parts of this out. Hmmm... I wonder if they continued or aborted that practise.

Re: Empathy and what it means to be "human"

Dee
Did those experiences add to your perceptions and view of this world, of the types of people around you?


I learned that there is a lot of truth to the old cliché "wherever you go, there you are." Wherever my travels have taken me, I have always come back to the realization that although I am biologically a member of the human race, psychologically I am an alien. There is no home for someone like me, no "true" role. I am incapable of believing in or emotionally investing in any of it.

The upside of being on the outside of things is the enhanced vision it brings. I see things with greater clarity. Notice I don't say perfect clarity. There is no such thing.