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Re: Fear

Good thread. Nice writing, Hannah:

"it sounds terribly lonely. A bit like a game of hide and seek where you never get found - sure, you win, but everyone else has gone outside to play while you're savoring your victory in a laundry basket."

Be well.


Re: Fear

I had a look through the exchange. The first thing that struck me was your assumption that Dr Robert was trying to manipulate the man into feeling guilty - that sounds like something you would do, and shows a lack of insight in to the motivations of others.

Or perhaps it shows a sharper insight into the motivations of others. I don’t just look at the words but the intended effect of those words. I know you understand what I mean when you say this:

The father who wrote the letter claimed to be a "super empapath" - I see the picture as an argumentative tool to show a delusional narcissist that he is mistaken.

Precisely. And what is the point of using argumentative tools anyway? Among other things, argumentative tools serve as a verbal means of convincing and persuading, which for all practical purposes, is just another kind of manipulation. In this case, the good doctor was attempting to manipulate how this father saw himself and that was my original point. Defending or not defending Cheney was irrelevant because there is ultimately no right or wrong, no good or evil. (Ok, ok, more properly, I should say that just as there is no good evidence for the existence of any kind of god, there is also none for objective morality, which means that it is safe to assume that such entities/principles do not exist.) In the absence of objective morality, what we have is one group or person who attempts by a variety of means and using a plethora of tools, including argumentative ones, to impose (this word is too strong but I couldn’t think of a weaker one right now) their value system on others. On an individual level this is often done through argumentation, through attempting to prove how “right” you are verses how “wrong” the other person is. This attempted imposition (again, too strong a word) is just another power play by other means. You can dress it up however you like with flowery words evocative of good and evil and so on, but it doesn’t matter what you call it. The only thing that really matters is the effect. If you are trying to manipulate someone through the clever use of words to believe differently and thus behave differently, you are attempting to exercise power over that person. You may mean well, but the end result remains what it is. Good intentions are not nearly as important as actions (or in this case, the words and pictures used) and their consequences.

No, and neither would I want to be able to. Ugh. The mere fact that it exists makes me immensely uncomfortable. I can handle campy horror-movie gore, but something like that would make me upset, distressed, and physically sick. I suppose that comes back to the fear aspect - I am scared that people would actually do these things, and I don't understand it. Also, I believe it deeply infringes on the rights of the victim that the video of what he went through is available for so many people to watch just for kicks.

Really? See, this is the part that’s just psychology for me, in that sometimes I do have a sense of unreality when people say things like this. I know it is because it’s alien to my own experience and I believe you and others when you makes these types of comments. Still, it feels weird sometimes. It’s like I think you have to be joking, like you can’t really mean it. Why on earth would it make you uncomfortable that the video is even out there? My thought is of course people like that are out there and of course they can do this to you, me or anyone else who is unlucky enough to fall into their hands! It’s reality, it’s how it is living among humans. I am not saying any of this to get you to defend yourself. Feel what you feel, think what you think. I’m just trying to convey how odd statements like the one I quoted sound to me when I stop to think about them.

It's the way he acts in the situations where there aren't "rules" that really gets me.

Funny anecdote. I think I’d get the reasons you’d be upset. In fact, I know I would. I just wouldn’t care. That isn’t me being mean or nasty either. That’s how I would honestly feel on the inside. That’s probably something to keep in mind. It isn’t personal, this non-caring. It just is. It sounds like as far as he was concerned, it was a win-win for everyone. I understand his line of thinking all too well.

I find it hard to believe that anyone is quite so self aware.

I’m no Buddha, but I am indeed a very self aware person. I have literally spent years examining my own thought processes, questioning my beliefs, and seeking understanding. Obviously, I’m still learning and I understand that this process will never end as long as I am alive. But that’s alright with me. After all, the unexamined life isn’t worth living, is it?

No surprise, but you do seem to be taking a rather black and white stance on the concept of power. It isn't always a case of "either I have the power, or she will take it from me".

Especially considering the fact that my “power”, so to speak, can never be taken from me, only given. And I also acknowledge the possibility that there are people out there who may have great internal awareness on the one hand, combined with an evolved sense of selflessness. Theoretically at least. They are few and far between, however. They’d have to be a rare breed. Outside of that small group of virtual saints, most normal people are far more narcissistic than they give themselves credit for, and some will attempt to get what they want as often as possible. That seems to be how it is.

sure, you win, but everyone else has gone outside to play while you're savoring your victory in a laundry basket.

The laundry basket thing was so nonsequitur-like that I literally did laugh out loud. Also, your comment presupposes that those who to use your words, “go outside to play” are somehow gaining something. There is nothing to gain or lose in the final analysis. As I just said, what passes for normality (relationships, politics, religion and so on) is a laughable joke. The universe isn’t absurd, we are. So it makes no difference if I say inside with my trusty laundry basket (that still makes me smile) or go outside and “play” because in the end, it’s all one great big farce. The only real difference between us is the level of denial which makes society as we know it possible.

Re: Fear

i just wanted to add my thoughts about fear.
fear is a thing you need when you get out of your comfort zone. but its an emotion, that you can transform into some kind of having high energy. fear is a thing that developed and protected us when we were cavern humans, we wanted to go for some food for our family, but there was a big lion there outside, and the fear was the thing that helped us to survive and not being eaten by the lion. later we used that fear to get angry, smarter, stronger and kill the lion. also in some cultures you used to get murdered when you took a woman from some group. so the fear was the thing that prevented you to get murdered. that fear in someway got into our genetics and we live with it.

but now things are different, but the fear is still there. the purpose of the fear is not longer there in a lot of things (basically what im saying is that the fear helps you survive) nothing is going to happen if you talk to strange people (most of the time).


Re: Fear


I did something today that could get me into a fair amount of trouble if I had been caught and I won’t be going into any details for obvious reasons. I wasn’t caught of course. But I noticed that my body was doing the slight increase in heart rate thing and I had to take deeper breaths. I also noticed the thoughts that appeared within my mind while these physiological changes were occurring. I asked myself if I was feeling afraid? I sat with it for a moment. The answer was no because there was a sense of pleasure as well. I decided that I was excited by the exercise of freedom I was experiencing while deliberately breaking the rules. It’s akin to duping delight. I can see how one can get “addicted” to the rush that comes with playing outside of the rules. I can also see how people might think of me as “fearless” if they did what I did today and all they ended up doing was taking a couple of deep breaths in response to mild excitement.

My reason for bringing this episode up was to emphasize the increase in heart rate and change in breathing I experienced, which I used to associate with fear. Now I think those symptoms are just generalized, all purpose arousal signs, which, if I understand the others who contributed to this thread correctly, is not fear as it is commonly experienced. Fear appears to be a far more complex experience than the basic fight/flight/freeze (FFF) response. It is this complexity that I (and perhaps you?) am missing. Then again, I also suspect that how those base physiological responses show up vary from person to person depending on his/her genetic makeup. If fear is more than the basic FFF response, then one could say that for all practical purposes, “we” are fearless. I said that before in a previous comment, but I don’t know if I believe that. After all, I still experience physical changes in the presence of a perceived threat. That’s good enough to call fear I think, even if the complex cognitive aspect is missing. So my tentative conclusion is that this is the real difference between those without much of a conscience and those who have normal consciences with regard this question. We are missing whole levels of rumination in relation to fear and quite frankly our FFF response dial is turned down in comparison to the norm. Not off. Just down.

Anyway Diego, I think your comments are for the most part on point, although I would merely add that the roots of fear must extend further back in our evolutionary history since many other animal species exhibit physiological signs (FFF response) that we associate with fear also. And I also think you are correct to point out that the original reasons for installing the FFF response in all of us are no longer operative in modern society. Fear is useful to be sure, otherwise none of us would have it.

Re: Fear

god did created FEAR. what i DOES be interested is BE that you cans WIN fear with other EMOTION does you THINK that be? THEM does like LOVE or ANGRYNESS and then yours can even BEND steel sometimes if you DOES gets angry enough.

what YOUR opinions is?

Re: Fear

Seriously Lega, comprehending what you are saying is difficult. So I am going to go ahead and translate what I think you are saying and respond to that. You are saying that god created fear (easy enough). Then you move to ask if fear can be managed and/or overcome with other emotions. And perhaps you are concluding with a question about the strength of other potentially overpowering emotions, like love or anger.

What is my opinion? Obviously I do not believe in any kind of god. Emotions have their origin, like everything else considered human, in our evolutionary history. Believing in a god and evolution is not necessarily a contradiction in terms, by the way. It often is in practice, however. Do I think fear can be overcome using other emotions? You know what? I don’t think so. I think a person can rapidly switch between emotions, like anger or excitement and fear, but I don’t know if the fear response can be completely turned off using other feelings. I’m talking about the basic FFF response and not anxiety or lighter versions of fear. And finally, are other emotions stronger than fear… Actually, I’d say no for the most part. My guess is that no emotion overcomes fear once it gets going because nothing truly overcomes our natural instinct towards self preservation. Fear is tied to our will to survive at almost all costs. And by self preservation, I am also referring to the genes. Genes are what survive from one generation to the next in the form of copies and to that end, parents and other relatives are programmed to at least be willing to sacrifice themselves to preserve those copies (children).

Re: Fear

your DOESNT actualy believe in that EVOLUTION JUNK? you should READS this

AND also in MINE parts LOVE and ANGRYNESS can overcomes fear. for EXAMPLES when i DID watched one HOROR movie and where did BAD MENS killed people i did THINK scared but then i DID thinked they be ACTUALY just SAD peoples who done gotted HURTS. then i did NOT scared anymore.

and ONE TIME when did peoples WITH KNIFES tryed robbing PEOPLES i did SCARED first but then i DID thinked their is gona DO that SAME things to everyone and GETS very angry and kicked their ASSES and did gived them to POLICE.

Re: Fear

your DOESNT actualy believe in that EVOLUTION JUNK? you should READS this

Hmm. Funny how a non-Xtian links a Xtian site refuting evolution as a “junk science”. Yeah Lega, we’re done. Go bother someone else with your disingenuous inanity.

Re: Fear

Daniel Birdick
Hmm. Funny how a non-Xtian links a Xtian site refuting evolution as a “junk science”. Yeah Lega, we’re done. Go bother someone else with your disingenuous inanity.
YOUR not can say DONE after does SAYING last coment. it be CHEATING.

and because you DOES get anoyed BY mine SAYING about god i DID readed (and did DISCUSED with friend) that maybe YOURS wants to deny GOD because you DONT wants to believe. but DEEP DOWN there still maybe SPARK that does wants to BE SAVED and also DOES wants me to let HELP me CURES you. also you did SAYED:
Daniel Birdick
like is there a god after all, or is there any kind of life after death.
so that DOES proves it... if you DOSE feel BAD or UNCOMFORTABLE about mine questions then i DOES respects that and i ALSO does says i hope you DOES be cured. BUT if you does still wants HELPS then does replies and i DOES still helps you. you not NEEDS do it now because i CAN helps later too. just asks.

Re: Fear

What a trip

Re: Fear

He's going to "cure" you.

/ma "cure" ?

You're infected! Like a zombie.

What if we get possessed by the devil? Can that be cured? Or wait... perhaps we are?

Re: Fear

your DOSENT be INFECTED or does be DEVIL possesed. YOUR does spirit has HURTED and that MUST does HEALED. sory i DOESNT know how else to EXPLAINS it but you MUSTS believes me. ACTUALY does one CAN says your DOES be posesed by the DEVIL but it not actualy POSESSED by devil only DOES in SYMBOL.

if YOURS dosent interested in CHURCH or OTHER RELIGION THING then maybe DOES talks to YOURS family about it? i DOESNT knows if that DOES helps as well as THEM talking to GOD does but maybe does GIVES it try?