June 29, 2006

Dear Rodger Tutt,

Thank you for expressing your revelation and understanding of God's expectation as evidenced in Scripture. Perhaps we agree to some degree but I address the issues of suffering as symptomatic and oftentimes necessary for maturity and growth. For the most part, there is a universal invitation for all who suffer to approach and embrace the grace that was afforded us on the cross by Christ. Essentially, one kind of suffering is replaced by another but we are not left without the power (grace) to overcome and be victorious in the end.

You cannot accept one part of the scriptural message and throw out other portions merely because you disagree with the implications (suffering) of relentless rebellion towards God. Suffering is most often precipitated by our own rebellious nature which often times leads us to seeking self glory rather than learning to be selfless towards our fellow man. The main reason why the Christian camps are still very much divided today are because of the selfish nature of man promoting pride and the refusal to let go of selfish pursuits. Prejudice is still a strong emotion in humans and that limits the ability of many to see similiarities betwwen differing human cultures. Imbalanced hatreds are the fuits of ignorance.

What Jesus patterned for humanity does have a universal application but in order to embrace it fully, one must be willing to distinguish between human (worldly) wisdom and divine eternal wisdom. To embrace the divine nature of God we are exhorted in the New Testament Scriptures to become like the Son of God so that we too may become legitimate sons of God as opposed to illegitimate children to God. Obedience and love are synomonyous as defined by the whole of God's Word and the absence of obedience warrants stern discipline in our lives delivered by God. In this context, a genuine love is an unwavering committment to truth, justice, faith (trust in God) and hope. An unwavering committment to following the pattern of "God's only Son" is demonstrating your "trust in God's offering and example" and so becomes the obedience expected of those who truly believe. This then is what defines and establishes the true context of your "love" for God and should naturally be exhibited in all your behavior towards your fellow man. So discipline which also causes suffering is for our good and not for our condemnation. The contextually correct application here is rendered in the english as "santification" which literally means to "set one's pathway straight."

What you described in your earlier days was abuse which led to feelings of guilt brought on by the heavy weight of condemning sermons and beliefs delivered by others. You questioned the suffering in peoples lives and perhaps your own out of context. If you were feeling condemned at any time, perhaps you were confusing the deeper feelings of conviction which the Spirit of God puts in us to set our pathways straight. Conviction leads to increased awareness and wisdom bearing or leading to the fruit of love and obedience. Condemnation on the other hand leads to guilt and many hidden fears and ultimately leaves one feeling hopeless and utterly depressed. This however does not diminish the need for Godfearing men to deliver warning and recompense to others who are not obeying the pattern of behaviors exhibited by Christ and His maturing disciples.

Con't Part II

Part II

Reproof and rebuke are absolutely necessary because humanity is still very immature and selfish. Mankind is still full of pride and prejudice and these enmities need to be killed off. I understand what you experienced earlier in life because I too shared like experiences within the realm of man's religious institution called the church. In my growth over the years I have discovered what is commonly referred to as the Church (whether Catholic or Protestant) is not really the Church described for us by Christ and witnessed by the early Apostles. Man still builds temples in which to worship putting on the pale face of weak sytems of belief. But in the midst of all the divided houses of god (developed by hirelings), God Almighty pulls out certain ones to continue the work that Jesus patterned for us so that humanity can one day ultimately arrive at a real Godfearing maturity. These Godfearing creatures (men and women) are the ones mostly identified by mainstream shepherds as apostate and dangerous. Why? Because we reject the religious formulas that man continues to divise and reap great material wealth from and remain steadfast to the only trustworthy pattern of behavior and teaching we have in Christ Jesus and His Word. We who understand this and submit to that are the disciples that were called and though our numbers are few by comparison to the reported two billion Christians on earth, we continue to pattern and witness the true gospel of Christ crucified and we still to this day suffer a great deal by it because the "religious elite" still do not recognize the truly Spirit filled members of Christ's body - THE CHURCH.

I have discovered that what is indicated in the New Testament Word by Jesus, the promises and the warnings of various hatreds and persecutions are all true and indeed come to pass for the individuals that surrender and submit to the pattern and teachings of Christ Jesus. Fulfillment takes place and we begin to realize that these various fulfillments are proof and confirmation that we are indeed on the "right path of sanctification." In simple words, it won't look any different in a persons life than what Jesus described and promised... that is... if you are on the prescribed path.

Todays Gentile Christian Pastors, Priests, Bishops and Preachers are not much different that the Jewish Pharisee's and Saducee's of 2000 years ago. They still practice partiality and carry with them deep bitterness and resentment and so they've decided to live "fat" off the people who gather to hear them boast of their great knowledge. Elitism is alive and well today and I tell you truly - is as much hated by God TODAY as it was when Jesus delivered His strong rebukes two millennia ago. That leads me to the last critical aspect of God's fullest definition of love. True love as defined by the whole of scripture cannot be made complete without also embracing God's hatreds. This is crucial and fundamental to us in the maturing process. We cannot afford to be found loving or embracing what God so hates. His list of hatreds is short and simple and made clear in the Old Testament Proverbs and also Christ's New Testament teachings.

Let us not be found embracing what God has condemned.

With all sincerity and love for the truth and our scattered brethren abroad,

Nicholas A. Stivers, a humbled God fearing man, scribe and messenger.
Author; Apostasy Revealed published 2003 by Mountainview Publishing ISBN: 1-928602-92-4
http://nicholasscrolls.cephasministry.com
http://abide-in-truth-events.cephasministry.com/
http://cephasministry.com

Thanks you for your informative response Nicholas. The existence of suffering has never been a problem for me, not even suffering of the most intense kind, because I believe that because of what Chist accomplished for us all by His death and resurrection, God is going to transform every second of everyone's suffering, both now, and after the great white throne judgment, into something better that it all happened.

It was my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any one individual suffer "forever" that drove me insane for twelve years.

To me the important issue Nicholas is that there is irrefutable evidence that a correct (literal) translation of the Bible teaches universal reconciliation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

The writers of the following material all believe that a correct (literal) translation of the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless
suffering in hell, or even annihilation.

First of all there is the TENTMAKER site http://www.tentmaker.org/

In the middle of the front page is THE SCHOLAR'S CORNER. It will help you deal with every argument against the Bible teaching universal reconciliation.

On the left-hand side is access to several writings that thoroughly refute arguments that support the doctrine of never ending suffering in hell.

At the top, is a very comprehensive search engine. For example, type in the word "eternal". You may be surprised how many pages come up, each page listing ten different articles by teachers of universal reconciliation. There are a total of more than 600 pages each containing access to ten articles
per page that refute the idea that the Word of God teaches endless suffering in hell or annihilation for any creature.

Another great UR (universal reconciliation) site is at
http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/

The section called IN THE GARDEN (accessible from the front page) contains so many eloquent, inspirational, Christ-glorifying articles by teachers of universal reconciliation like William Mealand and Donald Hayter, etc.

Then there is THE MAIN LIBRARY (also accessible from the front page) which is LARGE, and contains the writings of MANY teachers of universal reconciliation.

Four scriptural expositions supporting UR are found at
http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/doubts.html

http://concordant.org/expohtml/HumanDestiny/1cor15.html

http://www.godstruthfortoday.org/Library/knoch/ReplyToUniversalismRefuted/refuted1.htm
(copy and paste on address bar in two sections if necessary)

http://concordant.org/expohtml/TheEons/index.html

One of the important tools for believing that the Bible teaches universal reconciliation is to use a correct (literal) translation of the Bible. Here are several. The ones on line you don't even have to pay for.
CORRECT TRANSLATIONS ONLINE

CONCORDANT http://www.concordant.org/version/html.html

YOUNG'S LITERAL http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/rylt/rylt.html

URIM-THUMMIM http://bibleprophet.com/indexPUTV.html

OTHER CORRECT TRANSLATIONS NOT ONLINE LISTED AT

http://hellbusters.8m.com/asw10.htm and
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/Hell_is_Leaving_the_Bible_Forever.html

I think the Concordant Literal Translation is the most accurate.

Of the versions not online I like ROTHERHAM'S EMPHASISED BIBLE the best.

Here are charts that you can print off that display what believers in universal transformation believe that the Bible teaches.
http://www.saviour-of-all.org/ThingsOfInterest.html

Lastly, there is my own personal site. If you click on LINKS on my menu board, it will take you to dozens of UR sites. Some of them are especially good like THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP, and THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN. My url is
http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

I would also like to mention four scholars that have been an enormous help to me through the years. They commit a large portion of their time on the internet helping people who have problems relating to the Bible teaching universal transformation. You might wish to contact them directly, because they know so much more than I do about the subject.

One is Tony Nungesser at THE SAVIOUR OF ALL FELLOWSHIP
tnungesser@adlmi.org

Another is Richard C. Condon at email@godstruthfortoday.org

Another is James Coram at THE CONCORDANT PUBLISHING CONCERN at email@concordant.org

And the fourth is Gary Amirault at TENTMAKER gary@tentmaker.org

We agree that "salvation is fully by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus." But we also believe that EVERYONE will eventually benefit from this grace and will exercise saving faith in Christ according to God's perfect timing for each individual.

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada

"That God may be All in all" 1Cor.15:28