From: Joe Benson
To: Nicholas A Stivers
Subject: Hello, please help!
Date: Feb 4, 2006 8:32 PM

Mr. Stivers,

Thank you for your detailed scriptural advice. I am in total agreement with you. I must admit that I am surprised that you gave such a detailed response. The other advice that has been given to me has been very "politically" correct and "shallow". I am struggling with my current position as a "church member."

I have explained my concerns to the pastor at my church and he explains to me that we are totally for God and there is nothing to be concerned about. However, I am deeply concerned that he (pastor) supports such an organization as Destiny World Outreach (www.destinywo.com). The Affecting Destiny 2k6 conference in Atlanta, Ga on 1/25/06-1/27/06 was nothing but a money making scheme with so-called "apostles" and "prophets" ranting and raving. I must admit that they did put on a good show. I was very interested and actually felt like I was in the "spirit". The conference was held at Life Center in Atlanta where Apostle "Buddy" Crum and "Prophetess" Mary Crum minister. After the conference, I had questions coming to my mind about the conference. I did not feel that anything was out of the ordinary during the conference. However, after-wards, it was if God was making me question all of the acts that took place. I can not get it out of my mind of how the "show" went in Atlanta. I am deeply concerned about my church. My pastor recently left the Assemblies of God to start his own church where I am a member now. He stated that he must have a covering over him. So, he decided that Destiny World Outreach would be that covering. He recently told me that he studied under Rodney Howard Browne while he went to college at Southeastern College in Lakeland, Fl. I am deeply concerned about the "charismatic" history of Rodney Howard Browne. I do not agree with the teachings or practices of the Apostolic Movement or Word Faith Movement.
I am the outreach director for my church. I have made some great friends where I attend. However, I feel that I must let them go. I am very discouraged about my current feelings. However, God is first in my life and being under false teachings or those that support false teachings is not a choice that I am willing to make.
What advice do you give me? Should I "out" the church to the other members or just pack my things quietly and go? I understand that this is not an easy decision, but I value your insight. Please help!

Joe Benson

Part II

God has a strong word for these type of false, self appointed preachers of heresy... Ezekiel 34:2-3 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, even to the shepherds, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe unto the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the sheep? Ye eat the fat, and ye clothe you with the wool, ye kill the fatlings; but ye feed not the sheep...." Ezekiel 34:15-16 "I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord Jehovah. I will seek that which was lost, and will bring back that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but the fat and the strong I will destroy; I will feed them in justice."

Though the above context was about the condition of Israel and the aristocratic pharisees, we have the same repetition of history among the gentile populations today, especially within the realm of mainstream Christianity! Jeremiah was also warned by God to deliver the same message to the people in his geographic region. God said plainly what constitutes a true prophet... Jeremiah 23:20-22 "The anger of Jehovah shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall understand it perfectly. I sent not these prophets, yet they ran: I spake not unto them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my council, then had they caused my people to hear my words, and had turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings." Then God conveys what His Word is like... Jeremiah 23:28-29 "The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the straw to the wheat? saith Jehovah. Is not my word like fire? saith Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?"

What the word describes in Jeremiah is reflective of what you have witnessed at these assemblies and many charismatic churches. Neither do these people follow the instruction that God gave Jeremiah to speak to the people.It is noteworthy here though that you (perhaps unknowingly) did apply yourself properly when you wrote and inquired. You have witnessed much boasting and vain behavior among the worshippers in charismatic congregations... Jeremiah 23:30-32 "Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith Jehovah, that steal my words every one from his neighbor. Behold, I am against the prophets, saith Jehovah, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Behold, I am against them that prophesy lying dreams, saith Jehovah, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their vain boasting: yet I sent them not, nor commanded them; neither do they profit this people at all, saith Jehovah."

So, yes, the ideologies and vain practices of the mainstream charismatic movement is nonsense and all about getting your money to fatten the "goats" at the expense of the lambs. You asked the questions and I'm letting God's Word give you the answer. There really is only one answer... Having identified these deluded heritics as false, misleading unbelievers who know not what the Word of God commands and commisssions... 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 "Be not unequally yoked with unbelievers: for what fellowship have righteousness and iniquity? or what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what portion hath a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore Come ye out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, And touch no unclean thing; And I will receive you, And will be to you a Father, And ye shall be to me sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty."

Con't Pt. III

Part III

Where else does the Word of God warn us not to associate with "so-called" brethren? What did Paul tell us to regard carefully when considering oneself to be spiritual or a prophet? What kind of order should be evidenced in a "proper" gathering (church) of God fearing persons? 1 Corinthians 14:33-40 "for God is not a God of confusion, but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints, let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church. What? was it from you that the word of God went forth? or came it unto you alone? If any man thinketh himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him take knowledge of the things which I write unto you, that they are the commandment of the Lord. But if any man is ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. But let all things be done decently and in order."

You must admit that "order" is absent in these popular events and if you are like me, I'm willing to bet that certain tongues you've heard spoken at these charismatic gatherings is demonic in nature if not just utter stupid nonsense! There rarely is interpretation and when there appears to be such, it almost always is selfish in nature and rarely delivered as a warning to the peoples gathered. These conventions and many many charismatic gatherings (so-called churches) are "feel good" places to worship false prachers seeking selfish preservation rather than to learn selfless sacrifice (giving of oneself; love/charity), honor, unwavering committment (a.k.a. love), duty, unwavering trust (a.k.a. faith) and hope!

So again, what does the Word prescribe? 1 Corinthians 5:9-13 "I wrote unto you in my epistle to have no company with fornicators; not at all meaning with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world: but as it is, I wrote unto you not to keep company, if any man that is named a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such a one no, not to eat. For what have I to do with judging them that are without? Do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Put away the wicked man from among yourselves."

2 John 1:6-11 "And this is love, that we should walk after his commandments (unwavering committment). This is the commandment, even as ye heard from the beginning, that ye should walk in it. For many deceivers are gone forth into the world, even they that confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look to yourselves, that ye lose not the things which we have wrought, but that ye receive a full reward. Whosoever goeth onward and abideth not in the teaching of Christ, hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching, the same hath both the Father and the Son. If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works."

Con't Pt. IV

Part IV

All one needs to do is let the Word of God do what it was given to do... "BE OUR JUDGE IN ALL THINGS." Then one needs to accept what the Word judges and if he can accept how God has judged all things... he should then take the necessary courage to make a separation from that which stains and defiles. When you recognize and fully accept that Jesus did not command you to go to church but rather accept that His disciples are called to be the true Church then you will understand that you are called to be a disciple (member of the church!). If you can accept that then you will understand that you are called to be a disciple and if you will obey that you may experience a radical transformation unlike anything you have ever experienced prior. Along the way, you may discover some peculiar giftings... if that is so then know they are nothing to boast about saying, "look at me, look at me." Those giftings are strictly for the deployment of God's works and he uses you as a vessel to do His sovereign bidding. You or I will never be anything more than just humbled servants in God's court if we are anything at all in Christ! Let God fully fill you and let go of everything you thought you knew. Let go of your own will and understanding and surrender unto God's spiritual unction and guidance. The reason you have been bothered by the things you indicated is because God is trying to pull you out of the quagmire and bring you into relevant and worthy service where you can be of some great use. But remember that anything you accomplish was not you but God in you and to Him be all the glory, honor and dominion here now and ever after... in the name of Christ Jesus, grant as I prayed oh Lord, AMEN

As for the people falling down... they call that being "slayed in the spirit." It's utter nonsense most of the time and when the spiritual realm is involved like as in a Benny Hinn event... it's utter evil gaining a foot hold in peoples lives through deception and trickery and dark powers. These are mere showman entertaining the masses to laugh and feel godd all the while they are taking your money. Jesus was neith a showman or a shaman but He was a man, fully flesh like you and I who was utterly devoted and surrendered unto the Father's will. There is no other pattern for godliness than that which was demonstrated by Christ. Look at the Apostles if you will for they were men too but none were seeking for selffish glory. All of them were truly selfless and full of God fearing love and His abiding Spirit. Lastly, there are many spirits on this planet but there is only one Holy Spirit. Seek it and avoid all others. Like Paul said... "Test all things by the Spirit."

With all sincerity and love for the truth and our scattered brethren abroad,

Nicholas A. Stivers, humbled God fearing man, scribe and messenger.
Author; Apostasy Revealed published 2003 by Mountainview Publishing ISBN: 1-928602-92-4 http://nicholasscrolls.cephasministry.com
http://abide-in-truth-events.cephasministry.com/
http://cephasministry.com

February 10, 2006

Greetings Joe,

I bid you shalom, to you, your household and unto those with whom you gather in the name of our Father in Heaven and His glorious Son, Christ Jesus our Lord. Nice write up and most definately needed considering the gravity of increasing adversity surrounding us all. But how does one get there? Have you asked among those who are gathered with you what first brought them to Christ? An honest answer to this question will reveal much about each persons motive, heart and intent. There are many reasons why some are drawn to a good Church fellowship but how many are really drawn to the empowering grace of our Lord and Savior? Is what draws the person stemming from personal difficulties thereby causing one to seek remedy and resolve for personal salvation or was it something causing difficulty outside of self thereby causing one to seek remedy for other persons? Does an individual desire to serve the needs of others selflessly or merely escape pending personal judgements for a life of error and sin? Does everybody you know in the Christian camps believe as I do that salvation is a duty and responsibility?

Fruit cannot be manufactured by man for it is the product of God's Spirit. Man cannot approach God without God having first make the invite for "we love Him because He first loved us." Yet, we cannot begin to approach God (because of our sinful nature) unless God first places the conviction in our heart thereby drawing us to Him. So becoming aware of our hopeless state helps us to reason that we need HELP and apart from God are unable to help ourselves. Remember what Paul said to the Romans about man's desire having nothing to do with election/salvation but it was by God's mercy alone that such was made possible? Therefore, even my desire to do good is as Paul stated in Romans, "held captive by my sinful nature."

Jesus also said that we would not be made aware of our sins if He had not first revealed them to us. So now, because of Him, we should be aware of what constitutes sin (transgression) and what does not. Beyond the eight deadly sins, there are lesser degrees of sin and among the lesser sins, one thing to one man may be right and/or justified to one man but to another it may be counted as sin so Jesus warned us then not to offend one another with things that may simply be a matter of one's own faith (what he/she trust as the Word judges). Let each person be fully conviced in his/her mind. God doesn't rob us of our choices but He changes our desire and will to be in accordance with His. These FACTS help to preserve God's sovereignty and maintain the laws of grace over the written laws which condemn us. God expects us to be obedient to our faith but where is the line drawn between a man's futile effort to obey God verses another's unwavering tenacity and proper witness? Jesus said it a multitude of times, "If you love me, you will obey me."

Please don't misunderstand the context in which I speak of obedience or proper witness. The context from which I write has always been that obedience is only possible by God's empowering grace. So in other words, it cannot be achieved or pleasing to God unless He first put it in you and makes it come to pass, prosper, bear fruit, manifest, etc. With respect to how one shows himself to be saved versus another who seems not... all I can say is that my experience shows some are truly genuine in the repentance process and diligent to walk upright and others are not though they declare themselves to still be saved. I say that because to believe otherwise would imply that God is partial in His selection of persons yet Scripture declares He is a respecter of no person. Salvation requires repentance; not as a work or act of man but as a human response to the conviction God lays upon one's heart. So therefore, repentance is a fruit and response and evidence that the heart is willing and submissive towards God and fully surrendered. Of course, being imperfect apart from God means for most of us, including myself, that surrendering fully is what takes a lifetime of service and practical application because we are creatures created by God with the ability to reason and learn. That is one of those "higher" attributes that God created us with which separates us from the rest of the "animal kingdom," our ability to reason and respond thereby making choices based on certain spiritual influences we encounter.

A Cautionary Note:

There is an "eternal security" that comes with our calling but it has absolutely nothing to do with OSAS theology. In order for your security to be eternal... you must stay the course and not waiver lest you loose your reward. If I believed that I "had attained it" (once saved, always saved) already then as a man still dwelling in the flesh and being bombarded by the devil's distractive temptations daily, I could very easily get caught off guard and "fall into sin." Paul could not even say that he had att

Brother Nicholas,

Thank you for your spiritual words of insight. As a man, we get caught up into thinking that "we" can work everything out and stay in the graces of God. However, I do know that "we" can not achieve any of this without God. It is He who brings us out of the fire shining. I appreciate you reminding me of that. God surely does cause the growth, not man. It is so easy to lose your focus on God in the world that we are in.

I want to share something with you. I went to my Wednesday night church service and a representative from Destiny World Outreach was there. He stated that he has been pastoring for 25 years and he was a representative of Bishop Tony Miller. I sat there for about two hours concentrating on what he had to say, but there was an emptiness being conveyed. He was using scripture to validate his words and comments, but I feel they were a bit out of context. One point that he made was that we (congregation) are under the "ruling" of our pastor. He continued to state that our personal anointing of God will never raise above that of our pastor. He pointed out that the anointing flows from the head downward and that the anointing never goes up. I don't think that I agree with his statements. I understand that he was trying to make a point about leadership, but to bring Gods anointing into "mans hierarchy" or "chain of command" didn't make sense. He used Psalm 133 to validate his remarks. He also stated that we need to be "baptized" with the spirit and thinking of our pastor. He used 1 Corinthians 10:1-2 to validate his point. Is it accurate to say that we need to be baptized in the spirit of our pastor? Is it accurate to say that we can never have a higher anointing than that of our pastor or "man leader"?

I do not agree with his statements because we are not God and never will be. We are not above that of who created us. I do agree that everyone can be appointed a gift, but to say that God will never give us a higher anointing than that of another man is odd for me to believe. I believe that the Son of God, Jesus Christ is the one man that we will never rise above.

He continued to add that we as members of the church need to know our place. We need not be out of our "grace". He commented that someone may need to take their place of helping the pastor's family so that he (pastor) can use his time more wisely for the word. The example he gave was that it may be someones "grace" to iron the clothing of the pastor so that the he can study the Word more often. He even stated that someone in the church may need to go to the pastor's house and help the wife clean so that the pastor's family will not be burdened by this. I understand that we need to help our church grow, but to imply that we need to iron the pastor's clothing or clean the pastor's house is a bit much. Don't you think? I understand that the apostles helped Jesus during his times of pastoring or preaching, but should we do the things previously mentioned? Jesus prepared for thirty years before He started giving the Word, the truth, the light!

Please understand that I do know what he was trying to convey; mans leadership in church. However, I do not believe that our (man's) anointing is based on each other. I strongly believe that Gods anointing onto an individual is based solely on a persons individual relationship with God. The Holy Bible - Gods Word, stresses so highly about being in the favor of God; not your next door neighbor! What do you think about these statements?

I feel that my pastor's heart is in the right place; that is not in question. However, I do question the "covering" that he has accepted. I have questioned my pastor about my concerns and he has given me answers in a vague way. I was told to "not get caught up in all of that". He advised me that his heart was with God and if any "red flags" came his way than he would remove our church from Destiny World Outreaches covering. I took that as if he was trying to "quiet" me.

Please understand that I am not going around talking about this to every church member. I feel that that would be wrong. I do not want to create turmoil, nor do I want to make someone feel uncomfortable. I only want to be involved in a church that is by the Holy Word. I do not want to be under a "covering" that takes the scripture out of context or makes it into his own beliefs.

Thanks for your time and understanding. I will continue to pray and seek the truth through God's Word and enlightenment. I am guarding my heart, but I am also letting God reveal to me what is true.

Am I wrong for thinking the way that I do? Is this actually spiritual discernment that I am dealing with or am I making things out to be greater than what they are? I hope that it is not my own mind putting a spin on things.

Take care and God bless you!

Searching for the Truth,

Joe Benson