Hey now your getting all angry someone said Christians are angry? I have never found an angrier bunch than Athiest!

Remember Hell is just a word just like Faith No real meanning in it right?

ernesto446

You don't have to worry about anyone but you! It's your free will to Trust that Jesus was who he said he was or to not!

jere, I replied at length as it seemed to me that YOU had a lot to say. And how you can think that our responses are angry, and that your initial post was not, confuses me. I thought we were to do unto others as we would have them do unto us?

I'm glad I taught you some new words. I'm actually terrible at spelling. I run everything I write through the spell checker, to make things easier for other people. Of course, I could really be a psycho, just saying this when really I do it to make myself seem smarter, suck the life out of people etc.

Please could you tell me what the meaning of life before Jesus was?

I'm still praying for you. With my shoes on if you like (?). Did I mention that I pray to to Zeus? It's because there are these documents, also written in a form of Greek oddly enough, by people who claim to have talked to him (he didn't write anything down himself, of course), that say he's the King of kings. But you can choose to believe this of your own free will.

Website: deleted

I say "so-called" faith because that kind of "faith" does not seem to me to represent anything useful or positive at all. In that usage, "faith" is simply another word, a better sounding one, for credulity, which means to believe in something simply because some authority has commanded that you do so. In my view, this attitude is the death of intelligence, and explains to a great extent why the life of the world's societies seems so absurdly unworkable. After all, if my "faith" tells me that it will all come out OK in the end (I will go to heaven, or the messiah will descend to save humanity, etc.) why would I take seriously the real problems of real people? In other words, unexamined "faith" most often comprises a collection of ideas which, to me, seem dangerous, wasteful of the opportunity to be alive as a human being, and even (as we see all over this planet) deadly.

James

Does this sound like a Person who cares about the billions of people who do believe in a Creator? and find Hope and peace and love in their comunities with the fellowship of those who choose to believe that there is a higher goal than self or does this sound like a person who thinks He is above and better educated and on a higher SCALE of self worth?

Oh and James My mother is an english teacher and I is disleick db so any time your confused to the meaning just ask . It's not important how it's spelled it's important what it means! Peace

You quoted dr. Robert, but only part of what he said in his page called
On Religion. I
think any fair person who read the whole thing and also looked at the
pictures on that page would not have taken it the way you did.

On that same page he says this "My objection to religious ideas is
not to the ideas themselves, but to the attitude that wants to put
religious ideas into a special category, different from any other
kind of ideas, so that the religious ideas are somehow seen as
deserving extraordinary protection from examination and criticism. In
other words, somehow human beings have fallen into a kind of strange
superstitious attitude which holds that calling into question ideas
in this one exclusive category, religion, is somehow especially
intolerant, and abusive of the so-called "faith" of the
people who believe in them."

That does not sound like someone who hates religion, but only tries to say
that religion should be open to question and not just excepted
because someone taught you to except it. A person from another countr
or even from the same block where you live might be told something
entirely different and believe that just as much as you believe what
you believe. You say that dr. robert doesn't care about all the
people who believe in a creator and that he is coming off superior,
but YOU are coming off superior jere. YOUR god is better than
everyone elses' god. What gives you the right to say that and write
angry posts about dr. robert's web page which was only saying that we
should question things and not take them as facts just because some
book or some person said so. What proves that your god is better then someone elses' god? Don';t you know that other people think their god is better and their book tells them that just like your book tells you that your god is better. What do you wanat to do, let the two books fight it out? Also if he did n't care about people why
is he donating his time to answeering questions?

"When "faith" is examined with full attention and with real
intelligence, one may find some of the religious ideas useful, while
discarding, or at least revisioning, those which are not. This is
what I recommend: Don't take anything on faith. Believe only that
which you, personally, have examined. As I wrote this, I recalled
that it comes directly from one of the Buddhist sutras, in which
Buddha says:

"Believenothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing
just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because
it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said
to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else
believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be
true."

Ernst

This just goes to prove when we read something We read into it what we want to hear !

To ME <----- and Me apperently alone, The dr. degredation of religion and faith in something more than bugs! the Human SOUL as being above yours and my understanding . That a Divine power exists that made everything and we are just a part of it! I am the least of these things . I do not hold my self up as supieor to anyone or any thing ! I cannot live as long as even that Pine Tree on the Mountain. I cannot add a day to my life by worring about it! But I have a personal relationship with My Lord that Helps me to stay sane in a world where there are people and non-entities like corporations who can throw a family out of a home or steal all they have with no concience or remorse or feeling , like they where just used toilet paper!

Does that help you understand?

I purpously included the entire paragraph for the exact reason . He does not believe there is any purpose for faith nor any worth to it. He said that! there fore those who do believe and have faith are less than INTELEGENT! He wants to prove with science what is beyond science! Prove wind! Prove soul? prove Love? Get It?

jere, I get it that you believe what you believe, but I don't get why you are so sure of what you believe. You leave no room for questioning anything. Your attitude is what I believe is right and anyone who dares to question it or to wonder where all of this believe and faith comes from is bad. You are the one who wrote about the doctor's attitude towards psychopaths. You said he was wrong to allow that maybe psychopaths have a place in this world. But isn't that exactly what Jesus was supposed to have taught? What I mostly hear in your letters is anger. You are angry at the world, angry at corporations, angry at anyone who doesn't believe what you believe, and angry at the doctor because he has compassion for psychopaths. That was what your first letter was about when you asked the doctor is he was a psychopath. No one would think that. The man is kind and understanding to everyone who writes. Why not write to him about your anger and sufferng and see what he says? The one thing YOU don't seem to get is that a psychopath did not ask to be born that way. He was born a psychopath and that is not his fault. You talk about psychopaths as if the are less than human,but they are not less than human. They are human just like you. Nothing wrong with being a christian, but if you are one you should follow what Jesus said "forgive them for they know not what they do." This goes for everyone, even psychopaths, even YOU.

ernesto

First You say that you agree with dr.Psyco that Faith and religion are for the week minded and uneducated! Then you turn around and Use Christian Values and Jesus's teachings to try to Learn me something ? AMAZING! And that was my point from the start! You can not preach one direction and do the opposite , that is Psycopathic! It's easy to sound/read Nice ; Live well! It's a whole nother ballgame to Practice what we preach!
The compassion I had for a Psychopath almost cost me my life! But I don't wish them any harm I still Pray for mine all the time. Once you Love someone it's difficult to Not!
I'm not Angry ! You cannot prove that God does not exist! And I know he does! And If I am wrong I don't lose anything!

Question; what is the opposite of LOVE?

I visit Doctor Robert's website several times a week, and I have read all of it at one time or another. I like to check it out to see what new writing is there. The idea that the doctor is a psychopath is really stupid. If you really read his site you will see that he is just trying to help the poeple who write to him. He isn't defending the bad things that psychopaths do. He was trying to explain how a psychopath thinks and what makes a psychopath different from other kinds of people. He tries to give everyone a break and tries not to judge poeple. He is a good person and you shouldn't callhim a psychopath. I can't find it now, but the doc wrote somewhere that people who are not psychopaths can do all kinds of bad things too, so why blame psychopaths for being the way they are. No one asks to be a psychopath. You are just born that way. And why are all you christians so angry anyway? Also Thomas Jefferson was one of the fathers of the country and was not a christian so this is not a christian country it is a country for everyone nomatter what you think.

ernesto446

Stupid is as stupid does or as stupid writes/types

The reason your not understanding Psycopathy/Sociopathy is because you have never been the victim of one of these Creatures!

They are Human-Looking-Parasites that suck the life out of another person and then leave the carnege for another victim! There is no Place in this world for this type of cancer! IMHO

Ever pickup a dollar bill read it! In God We Trust!

ever go to court? In God We Trust ! So Sorry your in the Minority of Brilliant peoples to intellegent to believe in A Higher Power! ever read or been to AA 12 steps I will find them and post them for you.

also Ernesto don't take it so personal everyone is entitlled to thier own opinion . No one forced you to read my post or respond! It's just coversation! If the good dr. has some supreior incite I am sure He will let us know!

Jere,
You must be kidding. The doctor never said any of the things you accuse him of. Also, he never said he was against religion. I read his webpage all the time. He simply said that the claims of religion are not facts, but ideas,and so must be examined critically just like any other ideas, not just believed because some authority tells you to believe them. He also said that faith is another word, a politer one for credulity which means believing things because some authority tell you to believe them. Think for yourself, Jere.
In my opinion the doctor is the opposite of a psychopath. He cares about people and tries to help them, just as the others have already said.
As far as psychopaths go, perhaps you should take a look in the mirror.

If he never said Faith has no purpose and no use then why are you replying to my post? He does not believe in God he believes in himself! And has gatherd the Quotes from other intelectuals to make himself feel good!
The Bible is a History Book ,not a romance novel with me on the cover! :) The History is of Gods relationship with man. What was writen in the old testament was fullfilled in the New Testament! Go back and read it again perhaps it won't be as difficult to understand or believe! Peace

I know both Jere and presumably Wini love my habit of quoting themselves back to them but hey, you say you are Christians, so forgive me.

Wini -

“I agree with the rules and regulations that Jesus gave us in his blueprint how to live (the Bible)”

Did Jesus write the Bible? I keep asking this question and yet you still do not answer.

“there own big ego. Believing in what is good for them and only them at the expense of EVERYONE else in society ... their family, their spouse, their children, their neighbor, law, employers, co-workers ... everyone and anyone they can exploit and NOT have to take responsibility for their actions, unless, of course, they are caught and their butts are tossed in prison.....All atheists must be either attorneys or related to attorneys who want the world to stay in chaos cause it feeds their own selfish agendas”

Umm, do you seriously believe that there was no chaos in this world before the rise of secularism in the west?

“I'd like to add my 2 cents in about anti-social personalities, whether they be Narcissist, psychopaths, sociopaths, or just plain selfish pain in the Butts ... the obnoxious personalities we all have to deal with ... and yes, the immaturity and selfishness of the children raised in the last 40 + years has more than sent the statistics of these self serving PUNKS through the roof. I can't even call them adults, no matter what age they are chronologically. They are spiritually stunted individuals that have never read, comprehended and obeyed God's wisdom”

Well, you most certainly do not come across here as a superior person who knows better than all the rest. Judge not, lest yea be judged?

Which leads nicely to Jere -

“I'm not Angry ! You cannot prove that God does not exist! And I know he does! And If I am wrong I don't lose anything!”

-You write as though you are very angry
-You cannot prove that God, as YOU think he exists, with the PARTICULAR HISTORICAL RELATIONSHIP TO THE WORLD that YOU believe he/she/it holds, exists
-You don't loose anything? So the criterion of judgement is not what is true, but what is useful to your life? How Nietzschean! Perhaps you are not without ego yourself!

“The Bible is a History Book ,not a romance novel with me on the cover! :) The History is of Gods relationship with man. What was writen in the old testament was fullfilled in the New Testament! Go back and read it again perhaps it won't be as difficult to understand or believe! Peace !”
Umm, there's plenty of Jews who might disagree. Why, exactly, are they wrong, and you right? If its a history, which is a report of facts that happened, then how can there be such disagreement?

see next post...

“I purpously included the entire paragraph for the exact reason . He does not believe there is any purpose for faith nor any worth to it. He said that! there fore those who do believe and have faith are less than INTELEGENT! He wants to prove with science what is beyond science! Prove wind! Prove soul? prove Love? Get It?”

HE SAID THAT THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN AN IDEA, RELIGIOUS OR OTHERWISE, BECAUSE OF FAITH (BECAUSE THEY READ IT IN A BOOK/HEARD IT FROM A WITCHDOCTOR_CUM_PRIEST/BECAUSE THEIR PARENTS TOLD THEM THAT IT WAS UNQUESTIONABLY TRUE), ARE INDEED IDIOTS. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE IDEA ITSELF

An example – I believe that all humans are descended from apes. Now if I believed it because my Dad told me this was true, and after all, apes kind of look like us, I WOULD BE AN IDIOT.

If instead, I am given a statistical framework that demonstrates how simple features which are advantageous for an individual, imply that over time, given that the features are repeated randomly by variation at birth over and other again, that that feature is likely to become prevalent in a species and given sufficient time can potentially lead one population of that species so far away from another population of that species that they become incapable of interbreeding and therefore can be considered separate species... I have THOUGHT AND UNDERSTOOD the idea for myself, and can take it as a useful idea, one that I can apply to new situations and new species by myself, independently of what any one else thinks. I can explain, evaluate, and refine the idea myself, instead of viewing it as a monolithic TRUTH that never changes and therefore is beyond question


“First You say that you agree with dr.Psyco that Faith and religion are for the week minded and uneducated! Then you turn around and Use Christian Values and Jesus's teachings to try to Learn me something ? AMAZING! And that was my point from the start! You can not preach one direction and do the opposite , that is Psycopathic! It's easy to sound/read Nice ; Live well! It's a whole nother ballgame to Practice what we preach! “

Christian Values, that is, the nice one (not those parts towards the end of the new testament about beating women and keeping them out of churches), are ideas, and ideas can be judged by yourself.

e.g. Treat all human beings with compassion = A very good idea, I think, and one I think might have occurred to me without Jesus.

The joke of your life is, you really believe that, If someone aside from Jesus had not written that it was a good idea to love each other in a book called the Bible, that we MIGHT NEVER HAVE THOUGHT OF IT. This is exactly what the Dr. is writing about when he slams faith. The idea that we should love each other as brothers is great. THE BELIEFE THAT THIS IDEA COMES FROM A JEW WHO LIVED 2000 YEARS AGO, AND HIM ALONE, AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN HIM AND HIS EXCLUSIVE RIGHTS AND JURISDICTION OVER THIS IDEA, YOU WILL BE SENT TO INFINTE SUFFERING IN HELL, FOREVER, BY A GOD WHO LOVES YOU, INFINITELY, is offensive to me, and I reserve the right to employ my 'God given' reason in questioning it.

“Question; what is the opposite of LOVE?”

-I'm sensing a lot of it from you, Jere. You can talk of praying all you want, I know I have, but all jesting aside, would you please state if you do or do not hate Dr. Robert? I'm sure can find a Bible passage to quote to you either way. The idea is not that WE live up to a book that you hold up as the truth, sole truth, only truth, but that YOU live up to it, and in full, before you espouse it to us.

James

I don't know dr.robert! There are people I do not care for! I hate no one!

James you have to admit that the dr. regards any religion as a weekness? You said yourself He slams religion!
When a Human being who believes in a higher Authority than dr. reads this from a professed professional ! This is why I came off as angry or typed angry. He Pulled his own punch which He claimed not to do and I read it from the beginning!

For All I know, No one will get it Right! Life that is. But the Teachings of Jesus seem the best path ! If your right I still have lost nothing because all we are is dirt anyway. Does that make since?

I, others and even Dr. Robert have explained this over an over again, and yet you do not understand.

Religious IDEAS are not the same things as Religious FAITH. FAITH is accepting an IDEA as true, beyond question, because you have been told to/because you "feel" it must be so/because it makes you happy, and NOT because you have considered it for yourself, independently of anyone else, and, upon critically examining it for yourself, believe it to be true.

It is the existence of religious FAITH that the Dr. is critiquing, not the existence of religious IDEAS. Some of these IDEAS, of course, he judges to be good, and others bad.

We have all been most clear on this point, most of all Dr. Robert in his articles which you have repeatably misrepresented and misread. I see no use in replying to you any more and leave you in peace.

If you really are stuck on this, I would suggest reading several extensive, philosophical definitions of the words "Objective" and "Subjective". You can access these on the internet. Googling "Standford encyclopedia of philosophy" and "wikipedia" would be good places ti start. Read them, and please think on them. If you think you already know what these words mean, I can only disagree with you and urge you to re-examine.