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| Viewing Page 1 of 1 (Total Posts: 23) |
| Author | Comment |
Teemu Ruskeepää
Apr 19, 08 - 12:34 AM |
Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
see http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/article.asp?sp=332389698145344180624&v=5&uan=2239 That's a great article. The first picture with the weary industrial door at the backround really gives an exact impression of the bike. Its a really professional photograph. Based on it, I got the impression that the Eulogy looks massive, like a monster truck, except it is for human pedallers. It is like a muscle vehicle. As such it is the opposite to a sparingly built and light, a miniaturized frame. Do you think that means it is not aerodynamic? The Disciplines and Perfomance sheet here http://www.enigmabikes.com/eulogy.htm show 4 bars of aerodynamics, which seems too much given the size and shape of the bottom tube. Why not 3? Or is the hexagon shape of it really aerodynamic? |
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zebragonzo
Apr 19th, 2008 - 5:23 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
I've wondered how optimistic they were being with the aerodynamics too. The frame is more aero than it appears from the photos becase although the tubes are ovalised, the oval goes horizontal at the bottom bracket for stiffness and vertical at the head tube. The head and downtube are by far the most important aerodynamically. So although it's not ideal for aerodynamics, it's comparable to other bikes. Also, I think their 4/5 refers to how aero it is compared to their other bikes, not all bikes. |
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Teemu Ruskeepää
Apr 19th, 2008 - 10:40 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
So, there are now two facets that speak against buying the Eulogy, the weight and the aerodynamics. I'm looking for a light and aerodynamic frame which doesn't suck at other specs. If you know an alternative and don't want to say it here, please write to me at truskeep@ulapland.fi . Of course, it seems that any other frame of Eulogy's quality costs more than 2500 £, and I might just settle for this. |
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zebragonzo
Apr 19th, 2008 - 12:33 PM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
If you want something aerodynamic, just ask them. Bikes are all about balancing cost, weight, aero, stiffness and comfort. The Enigma bikes are designed to be a good comprimise of all of these factors. No bike is the best at all 5 categories. |
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Neil
Apr 19th, 2008 - 2:53 PM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
The Eulogy frame is only minutely heavier than the Esprit, and my Esprit with Chorus and a careful selection of components is 16lbs on the dot (including bottle cage, pedals and computer). Also bear in mind that the Eulogy frame weight effectively includes much of the seatpost, so I'd imagine that a fully built-up Eulogy with the same components would be about the same weight (if you went for Record you could lose about another half pound, i.e. 500g approx). Basically, the difference in frame weight between the Eulogy and the lightest high-end carbon frames is going to be between half a pound and 1 pound, which is going to be undetectable in terms of performance and the way the bike feels. Other properties of the frame will be far more important. |
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Neil
Apr 19th, 2008 - 3:00 PM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
I meant /half/ a pound = about 250g obviously. |
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Teemu Ruskeepää
Apr 20th, 2008 - 7:31 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
I misinterpreted Mr. zebragonzo. So the Eulogy is comparable to other bikes. What he wrote really counteracts my argument that the wide appearance means drag. Of course I would be happy to hear a second opinion on the matter of the big wide frame tubes. Neil, sorry but I'd like to keep this thread on the topic. The weight of Eulogy is not that. Its true, I spoke about the weight my self, but just to talk about the whole buying decision. And I checked, 1.3 kg is not as much as cheaper frames. Eulogy is in fact an average weighted frame + great material + cheap custom build + good price - average weight - average aerodynamics. Zebragonzo, what point is there to ask a custom designed frame when that won't be tested? Surely the custom option makes only sense with a tested design with different sizes? There's no point in moulding the bottom and front tubes into a different shape. |
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zebragonzo
Apr 20th, 2008 - 1:40 PM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Custom's about getting something specific to your needs. If I were to get a Time trial bike from Enigma, I'd make sure that I had a lot of say on sculpting of the tubes to make something very aerodynamically slippery. The advantage that you have with Enigma is that the designer (Mark) will go over your frame requirements and make something specific to you. If I was a sprinter and wanted something custom it's be far stiffer than if I was a climber of the same size and got a custom bike. Proper custom kit is about more than just re-sizing tubes. |
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Teemu Ruskeepää
Apr 22nd, 2008 - 2:55 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Hi sir! Is that just your opinion or a matter of fact Enigma's policy? Teemu R. |
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zebragonzo
Apr 22nd, 2008 - 10:26 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
It's probably best if you were to speak directly to Mark or Jim at this stage as they can give you accurate, specific info. |
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Arran
Apr 23rd, 2008 - 7:19 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Lets deal with this myth of less frame weight = greater performance. This in my opinion is simply not true when you are dealing with the light end of titanium frame design! I recently replaced a five-year-old Omega Cyclone frame with an Enigma Effusion. Whilst the Cyclone frame weighed 1.1kg, in my experience the Effusion at 1.3KG clearly out climbs and out performs the latter simply because Mark has increased the stiffness of the frame in the critical (torque) areas of the design. I can still recover 120 grams just by replacing my cassette lockring and skewers. The truth is that after over 500miles use I have still not dropped below the 42-tooth middle chain-ring! 
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Teemu Ruskeepää
Apr 23rd, 2008 - 12:52 PM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Sorry to reject you, Arran, but this thread is for as it says in the title. Teemu R. |
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Arran
Apr 24th, 2008 - 3:12 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Teemu, I am somewhat confused as which is the best thread to use. Your Enigma weight thread has gone completely off topic and is discussing cycling in Finland whilst the scope of this thread has expanded to include the technical aspect of frame weight. Sorry I simply assumed that the value of my answer was much greater on this thread. 
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Teemu Ruskeepää
Apr 24th, 2008 - 8:39 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Arran, I suggest that you start your own thread called Comparing Weights of Eulogy And Other or something similar. Its not too late to stop spamming wrong titles, ok? |
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Big Ron
Apr 24th, 2008 - 12:14 PM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Hey Teemu, In the defence of Arran..... you did open up the debate on weight in your second post on this thread. Nice point Arran  Teemu, I own an Effusion which has the same chunky tubing as the Eulogy. It's 400grm lighter than my old titanium frame, which had skinny tubing, but 100 times more responsive. If the Eulogy is anything like my Effusion then if you buy one I'm pretty sure that you won't be disappointed. As for your "areo" debate, what are you trying to save, milli seconds? I've had no problems with wind resistance...... however, I do have a problem with wind after a curry 
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zebragonzo
Apr 25th, 2008 - 1:20 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Ron; the problem with aerodynamics is less measurable than weight. You can pick up a bike and get an idea of weight. Aerodynamics is not very easy to measure at all. It's been calculated that aerodynamics are more important than weight up to about an 8% slope. |
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Tony
Apr 25th, 2008 - 4:52 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
FWIW surely the aerodynamics and power output of the rider must be of much more importance than miniscule differences in the aerodynamics of the bike frame. |
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zebragonzo
Apr 26th, 2008 - 12:06 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
The bike accounts for approximately 20% of aero resistance at 20mph. the the aerodynamics of the rider is important, but becoming more aero tends to result in reduced power output, a more aero bike will not. |
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zebragonzo
Apr 26th, 2008 - 12:19 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Also, just reading the review of thenew LOOK, they've got the same style of oversized BB that enigma use in their race frames: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=5842&status=True To be honest, I'd say that bike was described exactly how I'd describe the Enigma the only difference being the material (carbon = lighter, Ti = more comfort). |
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Big Ron
Apr 27th, 2008 - 5:09 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Either Mark has been moonlighting or it's a case of industrial espionage!
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Mark Reilly
 Apr 28th, 2008 - 1:07 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Hi Ron Wish I had time to moonlight lol ;) Regards Mark |
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Arran
Apr 28th, 2008 - 1:46 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
I suspect that at the bottom end of the down-tube, there is a lot of air turbulence from the back of the front wheel, the wheel rotation and the forward rotation of the peddling action. There is a fairly simple way of measuring this, which could be undertaken using the Wright Brother’s method of measuring laminar flow. This would involve cutting 8cm lengths of wool and sticking the leading end down with tape on the side of the down-tube and seat tube. If there is some laminar airflow then the wool should fly horizontally. I understand that both glider and fighter pilots still use this simple instrument today and it is certainly used by competitive sailors in order to see if their sails are correctly trimmed. If I can find some wool, I shall test this hypothesis out at the weekend! 
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zebragonzo
Apr 29th, 2008 - 12:54 AM |
Re: Aerodynamics of Eulogy and other frames
Arran; try sticking some behind the stem; I was shcked by the turbulence here when I was in a wind tunnel a while back. Also, you might want to use thread; it's lighter which is important at lower speed. |
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